Spoiled kids, faulty parents.

[Cleef]

Interesting parallel

In my culture, one can never imagine raising his hands on parents. My father could slap me 100 times, I would never have the courage to raise my hands on him. I remember, My parents never beat me but he did yell at me numerous times, maybe a slap here or there but I don't remember. I was shocked to see in school, kids talking back to teachers. In pakistan, if you did that, you would have gotten your butt kicked by teachers. That was in early 70's. Times sure have changed.
AZB

And kids are worse than ever; guns, drugs, sex in school?5th grade on.

So is it the kids or the kids raising the kids?

IMO, kids are to blame for about 0.1%, the rest falls on the parents.

Here in grand ole' USA, the "system" is geared to reward the most ignorant and socially maladjusted people to have more offspring, which leads to the state of affairs we have today.

It's like we're fighting Darwin's theory. The weakest buffalo gets a kevlar vest, the most sex, and stands at the front of the line for handouts.

Unfortunately, it's only going to get worse, with or without Dr. Phil and his absurd made for TV psycho-babble.

Which brings me back to AZB's original post and the opportunity to sprinkle some DR related seeds of wisdom. I'm no world traveler (unless you count Canada?which no one does), and perhaps my senses are skewed, but one thing that really got my attention in my DR-time was how well adjusted kids were. My comparison is, unfortunately, to ugly America so take it for what you will.

I worked with everything from 3rd grade right on through 12th, and I was charmed by the maturity of most. And to re-double my first impression, I spent the next six months after returning to the states working in my old high school. NOT an interesting parallel!

The best, brightest and well-adjusted? Foreign borns.

Russians and Germans were astounding to me. They worked diligently, they went out of their way to help others, and were bright and current enough to engage about anything. Even better, they ask questions beyond "when's this period over, i need to use my cell phone." 1st generation (stateside) Latino's were wonderful to have in class, 2nd and 3rd generation were (darkened) white trash, just like the rest of them.

Something about that "American Dream," once it's realized everyone assumes the work is over. So sad.

 

[marliejaneca]

Now, now!!

Originally posted by Cleef:

I'm no world traveler (unless you count Canada?which no one does),

Gee, I always look forward to posts by you, Cleef, your knowledge and flair for writing is always a treat, but after a comment like that ... well... I don't know ....

Marlie
Proudly Canadian (unless one more Canadian girl professes her undying love for a sankie, then I might immigrate to another country!!!!! LOL)

 

[Cleef]

Oh Caaaanadaaaaahh

BON JOUR!

 

[marliejaneca]

Got it!!!!

 

[Cleef]

Sounds good, then reality kicks in.

Teachers hitting children is one extreme....teachers refusing to do anything and picking up the phone to call police is the other. The teachers have to find a happy medium. They are authority figures. They have to figure out how to dicipline children the right way. That is part of their job.Larry

Teachers don't have the authority you dreamily believe (in theory, society or even in the school). And the context of this thread is talking "extremes" anyway, so listen up!

Kids are smart enough to know they can do whatever they want in school and the only people they ultimately answer to...is the home, or failing that, the police. If the kid runs the home?as many do?what "happy medium" is it that you have in mind for the no-authority teacher? How in the hell is a teacher to reach a kid that has no authority figure at home to begin with?

In the states, with its abundance of pharmaceutically enhanced kids, teachers have no meaningful authority whatsoever. They are the first line of defense to which one maladjusted kid after another cuts his/her teeth. The only way a teacher can defend his or her person?or meaningfully discipline?is by involving the police (unfortunately).

Why would some teacher?"raking" in $29,000 a year?step to a kid driving a 2005 SUV (with 20" rims that are still spinning in the parking lot long after the homeroom bell has sounded) who is more than likely on drugs (better ones than the teacher can get) and attempt to become his/her authority figure? This is a teenager; the illusion of authority you draw is a complete f'n fairy tale. Don't believe me? Call your local school department and see if you can line up a subbing gig or sit in on a non-honors class sometime.

What would happen in real life is that the teacher would become a figure of loathing in that student's life (slashed tires, smashed windows, etc.?they know where you live!). Better to remove them from the situation, especially when there are upwards of 30 others in class that want the teacher to instruct them (i.e. that?s their job). Spending time, energy and resources on familial failures is not how schools are set up to operate, for good or bad.

I would cover internal suspension (the last straw supposedly) twice a week in my subbing duties (in the U.S.) and the students were (almost all) there by choice. They aren't supposed to talk or do anything but school work or stare straight ahead. Of course my curiosity got the best of me and I'd engage them in conversation?geared towards finding out why they were there and if I could help them understand the reality of the situation (my honest realization/admitting of being a total punk in school was interesting to them, they trusted me, I treated them like adults, not punks). I would threaten them with "if you stay a punk, you'll be like me - subbing at your old high school"?and it got through.

One kid (so stubborn) refused to stay on school grounds during lunch. He would drive off campus to eat at Wendy's everyday he was not in 'internal'. A senior, he had spent almost the entire school year in 'internal suspension' b/c (1.) he "hated" the school lunch (2.) thought it unfair that the honor society students COULD leave at lunch and (3.) internal suspension was better than having to listen to his "stupid teachers."

Drop me some knowledge Larry; where's the "happy medium," where's the "authority" going to get anyone trying to reach him? Is "this" part of my job? Clearly he ran the home, so it's my job to straighten him out? ...to push water back up the stream?

Teachers have to figure out how to get kids to pass standardized tests so that "no weak buffalo's are left behind". That, sadly, is what our dictator says is the most important thing in teaching; not being an authority, not teaching values, not relating life lessons, not earning respect, not helping young adults find out what it is that they are good at, or dream of doing with their lives.

The gov't wants a pretty line item that shows them everybody knows the same stuff and that we're all wicked smrt. Apparently evolution has stopped with the ugly American, we can go no further, no more cream will rise to the top. Our melting pot has been turned off; we'll begin to settle into the "happy medium".

I pretend to know nothing, just what I've experienced?and I've now been on both sides of the fence.

You may talk amongst yourselves until the bell rings.

 

[Snuffy]

I think you are onto something. Children here in the DR are better adjusted. It must be very healthy to grow up in big extended families and there is something magic about sitting around together when the electricity goes out. I have always felt, while living here, that I was living 30 years ago in the USA...a time when life seemed to be more family centric and the world moved much slower. I'm not accustomed to some items here in this country...but I do like seeing children that smile all the time.

The separating of society - modernism gives us the separation of ourselves from one another. Even the DR is beginning to experience this. Think about the many ways we separate ourselves from one another. Look at a neighborhood street in good ole USA and compare it to a street in the DR. A few kids hanging out on the corner in USA is a group of drug dealers...in the DR it is just a few kids hanging out. So our streets in the USA are void of people...we are all inside our homes. We wear sunglasses...it prevents us from making eye contact and having to interact. We tint our windows...similar to sunglasses. We do away with sidewalks so we have to use a car. Well, I could go on and on. We have slowly separated. The last bastion is the separation of the family structure. Then you only have individuals. They are easier to market to.

That is a very difficult environment in which to raise children. And it is not easy to create your own environment offering an alternative to what has been created for us. For those who are successful I can only applaud.

 

[Criss Colon]

The Parents are responsible for raising their children!

I have always looked at "school" as a place where my kids go during the day to be with other children of their age.They can make friends,and be exposed to a "learning environment".Depending on the teacher they may,or may not,learn something.I expect my children to behave while at school,and be informed if they don't.I expect them to be socialized,and partake of physical and "after-school" opportunities if available.I expect them to respect the teachers,administrators and other school employees.Other than that,I will take care of in the HOME!
We learn,we play,we travel,and we "study" the environment.(Whale Watching,lots of "animals" at our "Petting Zoo!,etc.)We learn to respect eachother, and others.We talk about "GOD".We talk about "Social Responsibility.But mostly we just "TALK"!
My "American son" just graduated from the Univ. of Mass.I gave him a "spanking" once in his life,when he was about 3 years old.I remember thinking after of what a "Jerk" I was! I did it out of frustration on my part.My mother's words came back to me,"This hurts me more than it does you!"she would say while "spanking" me.I made myself a promise to never spank him again.I never did!We now have 4 children,12,7,2-1/2,and 14 months.I never have,and never will spank them either!!!!!!!!This from someone who's father used "The Belt" on him!
There seems to be two schools of thought about the question of "punishment of children.So be it! I for one can never understand the concept of how you can teach a child not to hit other children by "hitting" that child! How can you teach a child not to yell,by "Yelling" at that child???
"HOW???"
My oldest daughter is 4 months shy of 3 years old.She is a real "Handfull"! Everything is "Mine",and since her little sister arrived she uses lots of "activities" to get more attention.She likes to talk really loud.When she does,I tell her that if she wants to talk to me,and have me listen,she has to use her "Inside Voice",and not her "Outside Voice"!Last night she was putting a milk carton in the "fridge" an some milk spilled on the floor.She likes to "clean",and was looking for a bath towel to clean up the milk.I told her to get a paper towel.She did.After using two towels,and throwing them in the "Zafacon",she was done.I congratulated her.I told her that she had done a really good job.We "high fived" a few times.When her mother came in "we" told her about what a "good job" Julita had done cleaning up the milk.Julia was very proud of herself.Her behavior for the rest of the day was really good.This morning we checked to see if there was any more milk on the floor.When we got to pre-school,I told everyone about what a big help Julia was cleaning up the milk!..... I guess I should have just slapped her when she spilled the milk,and then told her what a stupid clumsy little BRAT she is!!That is soooooooo much faster and easier that my method!!!And it works just as good,RIGHT?????????

Now to those of you who think that the DR is full of "Happy,Well Adjusted Children",I think you are just being superficial.You come here for a while,go to the house of a Dominican,have dinner,and see the "Happy" children playing!
These same children are going to be "parents" at 13! At least the girls are.They will be impregnated by a older child of 18 to 25 years of age.Then that 13 year old girl can be the "Happy,Well Adgusted" child with a baby to take care of,and no support!
Laughing,singing,dancing,eating,drinking,screwing,and playing dominos may look like FUN,but it is just a defense mechanism to avoid facing reality! .The reality of;no education,no health care,no money,no chance of your children having a better future.The "Adults" here just continue to act like they did as children!
The constant comparisons to "Life" in the USA serve absolutely no purpose,other than to attempt to justify or minimise the problems of the DR.This is NOT about the rest of the World,it is about the DR!

 

[Larry]

Cleef, I believe this thread is about raising children. We began discussing teachers and their ways of diciplining children. You are talking about 16 and 17 year olds and their SUV's and so on. I wasn't talking about 17 year olds, I was talking about 8 year olds. Of course teachers don't have much authority over 17 year olds, parents don't either. By that time you have been shaped into a young adult and are on whatever path you are on.

I stand by my previous posts.


Larry

 

[AZB]

Why complicate the issue, if you live in DR, just beat up the little punk and he will behave.
AZB

 

[Larry]

I have read a lot of people on here posting how they got "the belt" when they were kids and how they refuse to hit their own children ( except for Shadley). Well guess what?? That's right, I got the belt too. And it didn't do me a damn bit of good. My parents were both brought up on farms in Ireland where is was common practice to hit your children and other peoples children too. If children got out of line, they were hit. Here a slap, there a slap, everywhere a slap slap. So when my parents met and married in the USA as young adults, they continued the practice they had experienced as children. In my parents defense, they really loved me and didn't know any better. They decided to be strict with me...they thought that was the best way to bring up a child. If I was "bad", I got slapped. If I was really bad, I got the belt. One of the things that really bothered me was the fact that I was a very good child early on. I was a good student, I never got into trouble. I did what was expected but whenever I did the slightest thing wrong, "smack". Then I would see other children in my neighborhood who were "worse" than me (see how a childs mind thinks) and who didn't get slapped. This caused me to resent my parents. As I got older, the slaps didn't matter any more. My parents thought that meant I needed more of the belt. Well all this only led to resentment seperation and rebellion. When I was old enough, I stood up and put an end to it all. By then I was wild. My parents didn't understand that you can't smother a fire by stomping on it because as the fire grows bigger, you wont be able to stomp it out. It is much more effective to pour cool water over the fire. My parents then realized they had made a mistake so they tried to take a different approach with my brother who is 9 years younger than me. The problem was they decided to take it to the other extreme and be extremely lenient with him. They didn't dicipline him at all. He grew up to be a lazy bum. My parents just didn't understand that there is such a thing as dicipline without inflicting pain. They just didn't get it.

Anyway, I didn't have much of a relationship with my parents in my adult years until recently ( I am 33 now). I resented them for how they managed me. I thought it was a stupid way to bring up a child and I still do. However, I have found it in my heart to forgive them and put it in the past. I understand now that they really loved my as a child and thought they were doing the right thing. They just didn't know any better. Don't make the same mistake with your children. I won't with mine.

Larry

 

[trina]

Anyway, I didn't have much of a relationship with my parents in my adult years until recently ( I am 33 now). I resented them for how they managed me. I thought it was a stupid way to bring up a child and I still do. However, I have found it in my heart to forgive them and put it in the past. I understand now that they really loved my as a child and thought they were doing the right thing. They just didn't know any better. Don't make the same mistake with your children. I won't with mine.

Larry

That's how it was done in their days, Larry, although, to me, that's an excuse that only carries you so far in life. At some point in time, one needs to grow up and take responsibility for their own actions so as not to continue the cycle. I'm glad that you forgave them, because to many, it leaves permanent scars...you're a bigger person for it. I am the baby of seven, and I discuss this issue with my older siblings. They often talk about being "beaten" (spanked, slapped, and hit with the belt) by my parents...I remember getting slapped only once, and I deserved it. I remember the threat of the belt, but it was never used against me. My older siblings assure me that my parents were too tired to use this kind of punishment by the time I came along...it had nothing to do with better behavior!

 

[rendul]

Isn't it sad when parents are no longer in control of their children or their homes because the laws of whatever land, call it abuse. CALL IN THE SUPERNANNY!!!