the dominican irony!

[Narcosis]

many of dominican students who would go aboard to study would remain in the host country; similarly, the haitian students who would go to DR would remain there. you are gaining from haiti what you are losing to the U.S. would't you consider that equilibrium?
you have only declared me wrong without fowarding any real counter-argument.
tomorrow, i will give you the reasoning behind my argumented points.
have a good night!

This is the exact mindset your "masters" you say you are free from promote. We EU or USA will accept more Dominican nationals in our territories and you will accept the influx of Haitians.

Why you ask? Because nobody wants Haitians in their territory! Plain and simple, it is the DR's problem; we either deal with it or suffer the consequences.

Do you blame the international community for not wanting Haitians in their countries, when there is a whole list of diseases that have been eliminated from most of the continent, if not the world, which are left un-checked in Haiti, this includes Polio, TB among others, but of course the easy way out is to contain them on the island of Hispaniola instead of deal with the root of the problem in Haiti.

Your idea of Costa Rica being the "Switzerland" of America is also a bit off. Check this report from a few years ago and look at the similarities with our current problem here but of course at a much smaller scale:

http://www.ticotimes.net/archive//10_09_98_1.htm

 

[NALs]

After all of this, my simple, straight forward, maybe even easy to answer question remains ignored!

Actions speak louder than words, I think this is a good example of that.

To Keen: I think you got Haiti and DR confused. BTW, the DR has one of the highest return rate of expatriate Dominicans in the entire Latin American region. This is especially true among upper class and middle class Dominican. Many of who migrate abroad, return to the country in a couple of years afterwards. Ask most upper class and middle class Dominicans, most know of someone who left the country and came back!

To Quisqueya: Prior to meeting you on this source I already knew a few educated, respectful Haitians, but they were few and far between. However, none were filled with vanity to the degree you have shown in your last post, this notion of self-importance that "shocks the Dominicans". Cloud 9 is a wonderful place, but please, come down to earth.

I am not impressed with your debating style, on the contrary, it goes hand in hand with what I expected, including the intentional ignorance towards the simple, easy to answer, straight forward question I post several times that has not been addressed by either yourself or Keen or any other Haitian on this site.

Until my question is answered, I will refrain from posting because further ignoring that question is clearly revealing to everyone something that I have been suspecting for quite some time, regardless of all the denials coming from Haitians, both educated and illiterate one's.

In case you missed the question , here it is once more:

Only the DR gets the complaints while the other nations of the Caribbean get away with it.

Why are Haitians more inclined to be against the DR, when the rest of the Caribbean is doing the same thing?

Why?

Why so much hate towards the DR and none to the rest of the Caribbean, given that the migratory situation is the reason used to justify the anti-Dominican slant, and yet, that migratory situation is shared by the entire region?

Why?

This is the question I want answered that keeps getting shuned to the side by the Haitians on this board and elsewhere.

If you would be kind enough to answer me this tiny, simple, rather interesting question that keeps being moved to the side and ignored so often!

-NAL

 

[Chirimoya]

Maybe it's because this is DR1? How do we know that KO, Q and co are not fighting the same battles on Bahamas1.com, Jamaica1.com etc.?

 

[observer keen]

message to modongo,

my reasoning behind my numbered points:

1) the sugar-cane economy of DR is using methods that are more or less outdated. it is not sufficiently automated_ if it were, it would not need so many illegals to cut the crops. and since, 80-90% of field-workers are haitian-dominicans or haitian natives, they represent the bulk of the human capital in a non-automated industry. in other words, they are the pillars of this economy.

2) a modern society is one that has, in addition to other things, a viable bio-medical industry. bio-medical research is better done by private enterprises_ private entreprises need enough net profit to spend in research. local consupmtion will not cut it, so external consumption is necessary to the development of such an industry. to my knowledge haiti is the major importer of dominican-made drugs. consequently, the development of such an industry heavily depends on continued haitian consumption.

3) the poverty of haiti is partially that of DR. that should not be so hard to understand. if A Buys regularly from B, the less money A has, the less goods it will be able to buy from B. if the wealth of B varies in direct proportion with the purchase of A, then transitively, the poverty of A is partially that of B.

4) about 50% ,on average, of university students choose to stay in the host country for at least 10 years after completion of study. being larger and more affluent than the haitian middle class, the dominican middle class would send their kids to france, argentina, spain and the united states for university, whereas that of haiti would send theirs to the east of the island. knowing the universality of the above statistics, DR is expected to get from haiti what it would lose to argentina, spain, france, and the united states. this is a replenishing process for DR _ an equilibrium of intellectual talent.

By the way, one does not refute with terms such as immaterial, wrong,yadayada without forwarding any counter-arguments.
don't ever try to participate in a debate competition with this bankrupt style.

 

[observer keen]

to mr/mrs nalowls,
your questions are fundamentally flawed. you have overemphasized " hate DR".
I cannot answer this question because it does not apply to the nature of my person. it is as though i am a guy who is asked to answer a yes/no question on " how often do you have your menstruation".
i remember my readings of the great wittgenstein. he had always maintained that many philosophical puzzles cannot be solved because they are fundamentally flawed_ the framer of the questions would unwittingly misuse the logics of language. i am afraid that some of your questions may fall in that category.
what you have failed to realize is that haiti does not have a substancial partnership(cultural or economic) with jamaica . these people deported from jamaica are not exploited workers from a de-facto-slave sugar-cane plantation. they are not being disposed of after having wasted their youth in no-law-no-protection field. are you aware of the fact that many of these sugar-cane workers are way underpaid_ most of them would receive rations of food rather than a regular paycheck? have you ever seen the hands of a fied-man from these hellish plantations? is it right for a man to work so hard without being able to save a penny? where are the labor laws of your country? i have an album of batay community that i have gotten in a bookstore in the city, try to get one and it will snap you out of your denial.
remember that DR had sent helicopters to rescue its citizens during the short civil war in hati? imagine what would have happened had haiti contained a "batay equivalent" where dominicans are systematically exploited and persecuted?
this goes beyond nationality. it is about human dignity. asking questions what about the countries are irrelevant, how do you know we are not on those sites?
but the DR case is a special case for the reasons that you have pretended not to understand.
think about this, mr/mrs Nalowls:
someone breaks into your appartment. upon finding him into your appartment, you make him do work for wich he is underpaid with left-over food. he stays in your appartment cleaning your floor and toilets and toiling your land. if you were to call the cops after 30 years of servitude to charge him with attempted robbery, would be morally justified? i do not expect to answer this question, after all, justice is abstract, isn't it?

 

[observer keen]

message to mr/mrs deelt
these women were my girlfriends, not prostitutes! i lost my virginity at 21. i can count how many times that i have had sex in my life! my girlfriends are generally more sexual than i am. these kids were not accidents!

 

[deelt]

O Keen

You need not reveal your sexual history to me or anyone in DR1. As long as you are taking care of your responsibilities and can sleep at night that is fine by me. Not to discredit your statement but to my understanding a planned pregnancy typically occurs in the construct of a marriage, not when you are courting.

I'm glad to see you are presenting your arguments in a more logical manner.
On the issues of DR businesses relying on Haiti for survival, I'll say this: While there is some truth to that statement, I think the more crucial dependence is
on government subsidies.

It will be interesting to see how things will evolve. If you are truly interested in improving the situation of the island of Quisqueya. I would suggest you pick your battles. Conserve your energies to debate something that is tangible and really matters. If I were you, I would start organizing and preparing Haiti to handle the backlash of DR-CAFTA on the soon to be non-existent sugarcane industry. That to me is real and matters.

D

PS to Quisqueya: you said that DR sold out by joining CAFTA. I truly think it had no choice. Which such big players (Central Am.) the country would have been hurt regardless. At least we can control the markets that are affected. This also moves us towards an environment where competitive advantage rules, regardless of how devastating this might be, but this is what the theory of globalization pushes the world to do.

The question of the day did the sugar industry get sold out. You bet it did. But I fault the lobby and trade organizations by taking time off to go play golf rather than advocate for reform. Now is just too late to have a pity party.

message to mr/mrs deelt
these women were my girlfriends, not prostitutes! i lost my virginity at 21. i can count how many times that i have had sex in my life! my girlfriends are generally more sexual than i am. these kids were not accidents!

 

[Quisqueya]

Hello Deelt,

Great observation...

PS to Quisqueya: you said that DR sold out by joining CAFTA. I truly think it had no choice. Which such big players (Central Am.) the country would have been hurt regardless. At least we can control the markets that are affected. This also moves us towards an environment where competitive advantage rules, regardless of how devastating this might be, but this is what the theory of globalization pushes the world to do.

You are absolutely correct that the DR would have been effected by this agreement one way or the other..but not as bad if she (DR) didn't sign her death sentence..

The CAFTA agreement will benefit WHO? It will benefit american enterprises looking for the cheapest labor possible..what great place to set up shop,banana republics,such as Central America and DR. I will not even mention the other countries and focus just on the DR...The DR can NOT afford to subsidized like US enterprises.. This will allow these big companies to come in and cripple dominican businesses.. Just compare CAFTA as Walmart and dominican enterprises as mom n pop shops...you've seen the damage that can and eventually occur..

This will cause exodus of dominicans taking yolas to Puerto Rico and other caribbean islands far worse that it is now..The wages will be so low and prices will be up which will be almost impossible for an average dominican to survive. But guess what, poor haitians will be there to fill these positions at the US enterprises "Walmart" and have an exodus of poor haitian migrates move to the DR..exactly what Nals and company do NOT want...That's why I am basically shaking my head when he believes the CAFTA agreement is going work out in the INTEREST of the dominican mass. Do you really think this US companies will care if dominicans or haitians fill these jobs..NOPE...in their eyes both are platano eating, illiterate peasants..that can be exploited...

The CAFTA agreement is nothing more than the expansion of NAFTA agreement...which Mejico got the end of the stick in the agreement..Mejicanos are still migrating and crossing that border which didnt reduce illegal reduce immigration.. Why stay in mejico and work for this Walmart that pays me slave wages when I can cross to the USA to work at their Walmart for minimum wage which is far far more than I would ever receive in Mejico besides in this country they have labor rights which will protect me a little unlike mejico...I can have 6 babies every 9 months and have my esposa collect welfare which we will qualify for subsidize apartments...Finally El sue?o Americano....

Is this want DR wants for her people...I hope not...or else they might really unite La hispaniola under one nation....

Than we can all blame Nals for his savy economic decisions....but knowing him he'll have links out of his --- to explain how the americans will help the DR become the USA of Latin America...

 

[deelt]

Quisqueya,

You say that DR would not be hurt "as bad" if we hadn't jumped on board. I say that is speculation.

We can all make a good guess who will be the big beneficiaries. But the question is can we mitigate or even reverse the impact by attracting Dominican-American investors? Same goes for all the other respective Central Americans countries. There are many Salvadorians-American, Honduran-Americans, etc. who want to help their countries. I talked to a US Dominican CEO a year ago that was just waiting for CAFTA to go through. Why? Because why would set up shop in China when DR is 3 hours away and he could help his people by giving his workers a higher salary which will still be low by US standards. I think there is some value to that. People that want to invest with a lesser standard of exploitation in mind. Doing this may also releases the pressure on Dominican-Americans to continuously send money back.

We cannot think of this in a vacuum. US Dominicans can benefit themselves and DR through tailored demand markets of Dominican products.

The failure of NAFTA was that their was no equitable distribution of the economic gains and insufficient market transfer efforts. They did not prepare corn field workers for the market impact by presenting alternative forms of work.

If DR continues turning a blind eye on this and Haiti continues to be overwhelmed with internal strife, then heck yeah the wave is going to overwhelm the island and we'll all be up the creek without a paddle.

Hello Deelt,
You are absolutely correct that the DR would have been effected by this agreement one way or the other..but not as bad if she (DR) didn't sign her death sentence..

The CAFTA agreement will benefit WHO? It will benefit american enterprises looking for the cheapest labor possible..what great place to set up shop,banana republics,such as Central America and DR. I will not even mention the other countries and focus just on the DR...The DR can NOT afford to subsidized like US enterprises.. This will allow these big companies to come in and cripple dominican businesses.. Just compare CAFTA as Walmart and dominican enterprises as mom n pop shops...you've seen the damage that can and eventually occur..

This will cause exodus of dominicans taking yolas to Puerto Rico and other caribbean islands far worse that it is now..The wages will be so low and prices will be up which will be almost impossible for an average dominican to survive. But guess what, poor haitians will be there to fill these positions at the US enterprises "Walmart" and have an exodus of poor haitian migrates move to the DR..exactly what Nals and company do NOT want...That's why I am basically shaking my head when he believes the CAFTA agreement is going work out in the INTEREST of the dominican mass. Do you really think this US companies will care if dominicans or haitians fill these jobs..NOPE...in their eyes both are platano eating, illiterate peasants..that can be exploited...

The CAFTA agreement is nothing more than the expansion of NAFTA agreement...which Mejico got the end of the stick in the agreement..Mejicanos are still migrating and crossing that border which didnt reduce illegal reduce immigration.. Why stay in mejico and work for this Walmart that pays me slave wages when I can cross to the USA to work at their Walmart for minimum wage which is far far more than I would ever receive in Mejico besides in this country they have labor rights which will protect me a little unlike mejico...I can have 6 babies every 9 months and have my esposa collect welfare which we will qualify for subsidize apartments...Finally El sue?o Americano....

Is this want DR wants for her people...I hope not...or else they might really unite La hispaniola under one nation....

Than we can all blame Nals for his savy economic decisions....but knowing him he'll have links out of his --- to explain how the americans will help the DR become the USA of Latin America...

 

[Quisqueya]

Deelt,

I am indeed speculating but you'll see..To tell you the truth I hope I'm wrong.. on verra/vamos a ver....

Deelt I do understand X-Americans will consider investing in their respective countries....but we are talking business... Of course some want to help their respective country but will just take advantage of the situation...If your assumption would stand correct then the Mexican-Americans would have helped their beloved Mejico a long long time ago...There are alot of wealthy Mexican-Americans that can help Mejico but they would lose toooooo much money...We are talking about capitalism...(either you or me)... Be very careful Deelt, you are leaning towards communism without even knowing it...Kidding with you..

I do understand your logic hun but we are talking about BUSINESS..Thus, someone has to be at the end of the stick in order for those on top to live like Kings..Think about it, if, lets say the whole Latin America bring their standards up to let say the USA economically...some business owners on both sides will have a major net loss.....peasants will ask for too much..just like they do now in the USA..peasants immigrants have more rights in America than they have in their own country...

I see I new form of government on the horizon...USA wont need to go to other countries to exploit uneducated peasants..There are enough right here in the USA to exploit..All the USA government has to do is amend some of its labor right policy in we'll be in business..I see this happening in the near future if an influx of immigrants from latin america continue to overflow in the USA...It will be great for the haves and the have nots will feel like they were back in their respective countries...

Geez this sound so harsh but its the truth hun..this is how its been for centuries and it ain't going to change any time soon....Again, Deelt keep it purely on the economic/business point of view..And leave your emotion,passion, heart out of it..Yeah, its a cold world...but hey someone has to do the dirty work...rather them than me...I don't see anything wrong with the system well I'm lying..I just turn the other way..blinds eye...sad but true

Oh, btw, to all my american viewers...I am not bashing this great country...I admire the Iron fist and the brilliant businessmen/women in this country...as we speak EU is considering accepting Turkey into the Union..how desperate and pathetic..They (EU) want to be like the Great USA but will never happen...Look at the current situation in Spain..Subsaharan Africans are coming in by the millions killing themselves to get into the EU....the idiots didn't realize that once Spain was part of the EU migrates from Africa will come their by the billions seeking the "European Dream"...In 10 years their will be no difference between the DR and Spain..

Ok were am I going with this..Those that want to see shall understand the last paragraph while others will continue to stay asleep..

Viva America!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[deelt]

Yes, we will see, hermano. I think the good customer and worker policies are also good business sense. This means keeping both your workers AND your customer's best interest at heart. It pays to treat people well. While I agree there are ruthless people in this process, I would prefer that God look at me and say, "my good and faithful servant."
D

Deelt,

I am indeed speculating but you'll see..To tell you the truth I hope I'm wrong.. on verra/vamos a ver....

Deelt I do understand X-Americans will consider investing in their respective countries....but we are talking business... Of course some want to help their respective country but will just take advantage of the situation...If your assumption would stand correct then the Mexican-Americans would have helped their beloved Mejico a long long time ago...There are alot of wealthy Mexican-Americans that can help Mejico but they would lose toooooo much money...We are talking about capitalism...(either you or me)... Be very careful Deelt, you are leaning towards communism without even knowing it...Kidding with you..

I do understand your logic hun but we are talking about BUSINESS..Thus, someone has to be at the end of the stick in order for those on top to live like Kings..Think about it, if, lets say the whole Latin America bring their standards up to let say the USA economically...some business owners on both sides will have a major net loss.....peasants will ask for too much..just like they do now in the USA..peasants immigrants have more rights in America than they have in their own country...

I see I new form of government on the horizon...USA wont need to go to other countries to exploit uneducated peasants..There are enough right here in the USA to exploit..All the USA government has to do is amend some of its labor right policy in we'll be in business..I see this happening in the near future if an influx of immigrants from latin america continue to overflow in the USA...It will be great for the haves and the have nots will feel like they were back in their respective countries...

Geez this sound so harsh but its the truth hun..this is how its been for centuries and it ain't going to change any time soon....Again, Deelt keep it purely on the economic/business point of view..And leave your emotion,passion, heart out of it..Yeah, its a cold world...but hey someone has to do the dirty work...rather them than me...I don't see anything wrong with the system well I'm lying..I just turn the other way..blinds eye...sad but true

Oh, btw, to all my american viewers...I am not bashing this great country...I admire the Iron fist and the brilliant businessmen/women in this country...as we speak EU is considering accepting Turkey into the Union..how desperate and pathetic..They (EU) want to be like the Great USA but will never happen...Look at the current situation in Spain..Subsaharan Africans are coming in by the millions killing themselves to get into the EU....the idiots didn't realize that once Spain was part of the EU migrates from Africa will come their by the billions seeking the "European Dream"...In 10 years their will be no difference between the DR and Spain..

Ok were am I going with this..Those that want to see shall understand the last paragraph while others will continue to stay asleep..

Viva America!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[asterix]

Interamerican Humans Rights Court Sentences DR

Check this out: Now they want the Dominican Republic to change its law!!!!!!!!!!!

(Recently in all Dominican Newspapers as well)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4335840.stm

 

[Mirador]

Check this out: Now they want the Dominican Republic to change its law!!!!!!!!!!!

(Recently in all Dominican Newspapers as well)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4335840.stm

Actually, in substance the decision by the the Inter-American Court of Human Rights does not focus on race. The central issue was that two children born and living in the DR were denied their right to education, which is something guaranteed by the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child, of which the DR is signatory... The official practice in the DR is to deny public school registration to all children who have no birth certificate. And it is this later situation which brought in the question of Haitian national origin, since the DR does not issue birth certificates to children of Haitians born in the DR, unless the parents are legal residents. By the way, officially 30% of Dominicans have no birth certificate. The reason? mainly because birth certificate registrations cost money, time, and is a complicated procedure, and the offices that issue them are assigned to cronies of the Electoral Board judges, and are run as personal and political money-making feifdoms.

 

[Rick Snyder]

I must differ with you on this one. It is true that birth registration does cost money but as the birth itself is free I think that the money paid for registration is minimal. It is not a complicated procedure in that it requires a person to take the hospital birth papers to the city registry and submit said paperwork. TIME, well I guess a person doesn't have an hour or few hours to wait to enable their child to be a legal and registered citizen. Needless to say this wasted time could be better spent making more babies!
Rick

PS Did not the article say that the DR officials stated that birth certificates were in fact issued in 2001 therefore allowing the children to attend school?

 

[NALs]

I must differ with you on this one. It is true that birth registration does cost money but as the birth itself is free I think that the money paid for registration is minimal. It is not a complicated procedure in that it requires a person to take the hospital birth papers to the city registry and submit said paperwork. TIME, well I guess a person doesn't have an hour or few hours to wait to enable their child to be a legal and registered citizen. Needless to say this wasted time could be better spent making more babies!
Rick

PS Did not the article say that the DR officials stated that birth certificates were in fact issued in 2001 therefore allowing the children to attend school?

Actually, birth certificates are no longer required for any kid (Haitian or otherwise) to receive an education at the public school system. This was enacted during Hipolito's reign and at least in officialdom, it exist.

 

[Mirador]

I must differ with you on this one. It is true that birth registration does cost money but as the birth itself is free I think that the money paid for registration is minimal. It is not a complicated procedure in that it requires a person to take the hospital birth papers to the city registry and submit said paperwork. TIME, well I guess a person doesn't have an hour or few hours to wait to enable their child to be a legal and registered citizen. Needless to say this wasted time could be better spent making more babies!
Rick

PS Did not the article say that the DR officials stated that birth certificates were in fact issued in 2001 therefore allowing the children to attend school?

This is not the way it works in the South. If a woman happens to give birth in a public hospital, she would be issued a 'birth receipt' with which to apply for the 'birth certificate, only if she has an official ID (c?dula), which very often she hasen't.

The article does not state not explain the fact that the birth certificates were issued after two years had passed, time the girls missed school, and the ONGs began legal proceedings against the state.

 

[asopao]

This is not the way it works in the South. If a woman happens to give birth in a public hospital, she would be issued a 'birth receipt' with which to apply for the 'birth certificate, only if she has an official ID (c?dula), which very often she hasen't.

The article does not state not explain the fact that the birth certificates were issued after two years had passed, time the girls missed school, and the ONGs began legal proceedings against the state.

DR is already a poor country and we don't need foreign children to overcrowd the classrooms. France and Quebec can overcrowd their own classrooms with Haitian children if it concerns them.

Hipolito made a mistake in implementing that law, He doesn't care anyways. These corrupt rats don't care if DR gets destroyed like Haiti. All they wanted was to plunder the state and get to live luxurious lives.

 

[Mirador]

Actually, birth certificates are no longer required for any kid (Haitian or otherwise) to receive an education at the public school system. This was enacted during Hipolito's reign and at least in officialdom, it exist.

Sorry, to contradict you, but this is not the case. Less than a month ago a 'comadre' called from San Juan and told me her daughter (my 'ahijada') was not allowed to register in school for lack of birth certificate. Many of my neighbors in La Cabullita, Azua, have children who are not allowed to attend school because of lack of birth certificates.The parents also lack birth certificates...
During Hipolito's administration, I personally intervened to obtain birth certificates for most adult inhabitants of a village south of San Juan. The then Secretary of Education, do?a Milagros Ortiz gave instructions, in my presence, to the local PRD chieftain to help the villagers. When I returned with the group of villagers, I was asked to pay 2 thousand pesos for each... I told them the villagers were 'compa?eros', but it seems they thought they had enough 'compa?eros' to win the election. They didn't.

 

[NALs]

Sorry, to contradict you, but this is not the case. Less than a month ago a 'comadre' called from San Juan and told me her daughter (my 'ahijada') was not allowed to register in school for lack of birth certificate. Many of my neighbors in La Cabullita, Azua, have children who are not allowed to attend school because of lack of birth certificates.The parents also lack birth certificates...
During Hipolito's administration, I personally intervened to obtain birth certificates for most adult inhabitants of a village south of San Juan. The then Secretary of Education, do?a Milagros Ortiz gave instructions, in my presence, to the local PRD chieftain to help the villagers. When I returned with the group of villagers, I was asked to pay 2 thousand pesos for each... I told them the villagers were 'compa?eros', but it seems they thought they had enough 'compa?eros' to win the election. They didn't.

I did ended my post saying "at least in officialdom, it exist".

That means, it exist in the books, but what may be occuring may not be according to the book...

 

[observer keen]

"they do not have time to register but have time to make babies", the accusation of a moron with a 95 iq, a cold-hearted human with zero emphathy, even in hatred you cannot be original!
the world is getting smarter, your beed is going down the extinction road as the great hegel had predicted. two hundred years from now, commentators like your kind will be laughed at for their ridiculous stupidity, the sophisticated kind of stupidity that you seem to embody.