The DR is Starting to Scare the Hell out of me !!!

[Ken]

AZB, I was responding only to your question about whether you have complained about crime. You have. Everything else that you say in the 2 posts I agree with.

It took me less than a minute searching for "crime in Santiago" to find one of your posts. This one was a thread starter. http://www.dr1.com/forums/living/55836-thief-bites-dust-street-justice-16.html

This will be my last post on this subject since it was never my intention to start a ****ing match with you.

 

[mountainfrog]

Good and Bad Guys

... what scares me is the fact that the police dont seem to give a damn, and from what ive read seem almost complicit, and seem unwilling to take a hard line on drugs, that is what scares me.

If it only were the police!
It has become difficult to know the bad guys from the good guys. Both groups can have a uniform... and one stands a good chance to get between the lines.

Tell me what and whom (drug) money cannot buy here?
Lawyers, judges, witnesses, hit men...?
This I think is the real threat, no legal security.

m'frog

 

[Chivo809]

What part of DR are you planning to live in?

I am new to this forum and I love the DR the campos is way different than the city. My mother has been taking me to DR since I was 5 I have never been a victim of crime. The only people I have seen with problems are loud mouth touristas they get put in their places really quick. The roads can be dangerous if you have never driven on anything like them. To me life is bad everywhere I love DR I take the good with the bad. It makes me happy that people want to go there.

 

[KeithF]

Ok here's the difference, in the UK i can mix with ALL social groups and feel safe while im doing it, and this is the reason why - in the UK if i get into trouble, ie someone pulls a gun on me, or mugs me, or breaks into my house, or any other such crime, i can go to the police and they will do something about it, and that is the bottom line.
How can i, or my partner, or my friends feel safe in a country that seems to have become almost resigned to having a high level of drug use and crime, and that is what scares me, its not the crime itself that scares me, after all, ALL countries suffer from crime, what scares me is the fact that the police dont seem to give a damn, and from what ive read seem almost complicit, and seem unwilling to take a hard line on drugs, that is what scares me.

Regards

Matt

What part of the UK do you live in Matt? Because it's a different UK to the one I visit regularly! (The Isle of Man isn't part of the UK in case anyone was wondering). I grew up in Morecambe. Morecambe remains the only place I've ever been randomly beaten up, me and a friend were jumped from behind by a group who we didn't know and hadn't had any contact with. There are parts of Lancaster (the last town I lived in before moving away) that I wouldn't want to walk through alone during the day, let alone at night! The Ryelands estate, fire engines will only go onto the estate with a police escort because they get bricks thrown at them as they try to fight the fire!

Have you ever been a victim of crime? My wife's parents house was burgled while they were visiting us. Their neighbour secured the building for them after calling the police who were too busy to come! When we took them home, we went to the police station and were told 'someone will visit in a day or two' and gave them a crime number for their insurance company. That was in Burnley, a town I really wouldn't want to walk around at night!

Just to make sure the south doesn't get away without a mention, have you walked around Crawley? I know someone who lived there and it is a rough town.

Police in the UK might not be corrupt but they aren't efficient either. Drugs are openly sold in the street (I've been approached in pubs etc). Our prisons are full. Only today in the news...

"Home Secretary John Reid has denied telling judges to give criminals softer sentences to ease prison overcrowding.

He said he was merely re-stating existing guidelines and serious offenders should still be locked up.

It comes after two judges released sex offenders saying they were following Mr Reid's advice.

Mr Reid is under fire on several fronts as the Tories accused his department of descending into "anarchy".

The head of the Youth Justice Board of England and Wales, Rod Morgan, earlier quit his job in protest at prison overcrowding."
BBC News website 26th Jan 07.

I would feel safe living in the Dom Rep. Probably not as safe as here on the Isle of Man, almost certainly safer than in Lancaster. People carrying guns openly is something that I can't get used to over there but I think that will always be something Brits will find hard and take a while to get used to.

The roads ARE crap over there and in much worse state than in the UK. The standard of driving is appaling so your safety is compromised more by being in DR. Drive 'defensively' at all times and let the others be 'macho'.

I hope the DR Government does actively tackle the rising drug culture because it is definately increasing but it isn't at the moment a major problem (that's from talking to people who live there, I'm not there enough to know).

 

[dv8]

Ok here's the difference, in the UK i can mix with ALL social groups and feel safe while im doing it, and this is the reason why - in the UK if i get into trouble, ie someone pulls a gun on me, or mugs me, or breaks into my house, or any other such crime, i can go to the police and they will do something about it, and that is the bottom line.

crime yes, there is plenty of it here but not "mindless crime" like it happens in the uk. when i lived in london, islington there was a guy who knifed innocent bus passenger after being reprimanded about his behaviour (throwing chips at people, namely).
now, one does not see THIS in DR...

 

[Identity_check]

If it only were the police!
It has become difficult to know the bad guys from the good guys. Both groups can have a uniform... and one stands a good chance to get between the lines.

Tell me what and whom (drug) money cannot buy here?
Lawyers, judges, witnesses, hit men...?
This I think is the real threat, no legal security.

m'frog

I totally agree moutainfrog, if there is no legal security then sooner or later it will all fall apart.

Me and my partner are looking for somewhere to live for the rest of our lives, not just for 6 months or a year, im looking 5,10 years down the line and my common sense tells me things are going to get alot worse before they get better.
Sorry if this is thread started by me is getting very negative in nature, but personnel safety and the safety of others is a very important issue.

What price a place in the sun ?

Regards

Matt

 

[AZB]

I have never seen drugs in this country. I don't know of a single dominican who uses drugs in my circle of friends. You do not see drugs in streets like in europe and north america. I move around here a lot and know this country very well yet I have yet to see drugs being sold freely on streets. So I don't know where you get the idea that this country if going ape crazy with crimes and drugs.
AZB

 

[Chivo809]

I have never seen drugs in this country. I don't know of a single dominican who uses drugs in my circle of friends. You do not see drugs in streets like in europe and north america. I move around here a lot and know this country very well yet I have yet to see drugs being sold freely on streets. So I don't know where you get the idea that this country if going ape crazy with crimes and drugs.
AZB

I agree I have only see 1 person and he is treated as an outcast to the whole town.

 

[Matilda]

It is really not possible to compare Uk and DR. In the UK in the space of 10 years in London, living in a nice area, I was burgled twice, my car was vandalised around 10 times, and broken into twice. My bag was stolen from my office once. Here I have been shot once. I do not live in a bad area. I live in Villas del mar, an area of nice villas, interspersed with Haitian and Dominican shacks. My friends are ex pats in the main, but I am pleasant to all - balck white and brown, richa nd poor. There are no obvious drugs here, but it happens - mainly amongst the ex pats but in this area to a lesser degree than UK. However, there is a difference. My crimes in the UK were reported to the police. They never caught the culprits but they responded. Here, after being shot someone dialled 911.....NO REPLY!!!! Dialled the local police....NO REPLY!!! 5 hours to hospital, and the people who took me in their arms, on a motorbike, in a car, were all at risk of bieing arrested, because that is what happens here if you take someone to hospital who has been shot or injured in a car accident. The police did their job and the guys who shot me were caught....and let out a week later as a girlfriend of theirs paid 27000 RD$ to get them out.

I am still here. I don't feel as safe as Uk, because in UK I doubt anyone would shoot me. But they would hassle me on the tube, gangs of youths would hassle me on the bus, they would call my Dominican husband 'monkey' (as happened on a recent trip to UK), they would vandalise my car etc. In hindsight....I would rather be shot once a year, than have to put up with threatening gangs of youths more often.

If you want to come here Matt....then do it. Far more good than bad, and as far as the bad is concerned, work with us to try and make it better, and help this country be the fabulous place it can be with fabulous peole to boot.

Matilda

 

[KeithF]

I totally agree moutainfrog, if there is no legal security then sooner or later it will all fall apart.

Me and my partner are looking for somewhere to live for the rest of our lives, not just for 6 months or a year, im looking 5,10 years down the line and my common sense tells me things are going to get alot worse before they get better.
Sorry if this is thread started by me is getting very negative in nature, but personnel safety and the safety of others is a very important issue.

What price a place in the sun ?

Regards

Matt

Okay Matt, you decided to quote Mountain Frog's negative comments about DR but to ignore my negative comments about UK. You say 'common sense tells you things are going to get a lot worse before they get better'. Are we talking about DR or UK here? In the UK, a judge who wanted to send a paedophile to jail couldn't because the jails are full, so he gave him a community service. I don't feel much safer knowing that paedophiles aren't being jailed in the UK, do you? If you want to gloss over what is crap about the UK and focus on what is crap about the Dom Rep, then of course it's not a place for you to go to live in. Alternatively, if you gloss over what is crap about the Dominican Republic and focus on what is crap in the UK, then you'd be off to the sun tomorrow.

If you try to take an over-view of the UK v DR, then you'll find good and bad points for both countries. Ignore one side of the coin and you'll make the answer that you want to hear, be that good or bad.

 

[mountainfrog]

No Negative Frog

...Mountain Frog's negative comments about DR...

My comments are not really negative, if there were I would have to pack and leave.
I just pointed to the danger of abundant drug money buying the state.
To deny this happening to a threatening large extent here would be like burying one's head in the sand.
It's this development that creates legal insecurity to all and this is why many leave.
And yes, Dominicans as well.

m'frog

 

[Lambada]

If it only were the police!
It has become difficult to know the bad guys from the good guys. Both groups can have a uniform... and one stands a good chance to get between the lines.

Tell me what and whom (drug) money cannot buy here?
Lawyers, judges, witnesses, hit men...?
This I think is the real threat, no legal security.

m'frog

That is exactly the problem in a nutshell. And some of us long termers who thought we could differentiate the good police from the bad are now being a touch more cautious about making those sort of statements, because, unfortunately, some of the good guys have been 'turned' under pressure of having their families etc threatened.

I agree with Matilda: come if you want to. But I'd add 'if you have the right stuff'. Matilda has exactly the right stuff, she has never overplayed her attack and she is one plucky lady. But not everyone fits into this category. I'd say, if a message board scares you, or if you're the sort of new resident who is going to make stupid mistakes, then maybe this isn't the place for you at this time. You'll never know, of course, until you give it a one year trial period before deciding. If that isn't an option for you, probably best to think again.

 

[AZB]

Please take a note that all the killings, kidnapping, drug use, robberies and rape is happening to expats who live near the coast or a resort area. I have yet to see some expat get killed or murdered in the nicer areas of santiago or santo domingo. Maybe resort area is really not such a hot place to live?
You see so many expats married to women who are from barrios and foreign women married to poor dominican men. Where do you think they go when they have to visit their families? yes, they have to go to ghettos and get to meet ghetto folks. To them, you folks are as rich as gods. of course the word gets around to criminal elements and sooner or later something horrible happens to the expat.
Just do a search and see whenever some expat asks for directions in santiago or anywhere its always directions to seriously bad areas to meet some girl's family or to meet a guy etc. They always ask " how to I get to cien fuegos, buenos aires, otra banda, monte rico etc etc in santiago? they never ask for directions to villa olga, los jardines or ceros etc? they never seem to know anyone in these good areas, but always the ghettos. Read some posts in "men from mars and women from Venus forum" and see how they always starts their post by saying "my wife or my girlfriend is from a really bad area, poor family, how my boyfriend lives in montellano etc etc". These same people get to mix with only the poor folks who introduce them to more poor desperate folks. Then sooner or later, someone decides to separate your money from you. Its really all that simple. Why is hillbilly, juanita, chirimoya, myself, DMS (dave), robert, scandall or other respectable expats who live among respectable dominican folks not complain about dangers of living in DR?
AZB

 

[mountainfrog]

Tell me where you live and I will tell you....

... all the killings, kidnapping, drug use, robberies and rape is happening to expats who live near the coast or a resort area. I have yet to see some expat get killed or murdered in the nicer areas of santiago or santo domingo.

It sounds as you believe in what you say...
May the gods see it as you see it.

m'frog

 

[Lambada]

Aftab,
'Nice' Dominicans get murdered too. Vanessa for example in Santiago. I don't think most people posting here equate the drug problem with the murder of expats. It is the overall increase in the sort of attacks which certainly middle class Dominicans in Santiago suffer, just as they do in Puerto Plata and elsewhere. There is a bigger picture than ghetto problems. People come OUT from the barrios into other areas.

 

[NALs]

Aftab,
'Nice' Dominicans get murdered too. Vanessa for example in Santiago. I don't think most people posting here equate the drug problem with the murder of expats. It is the overall increase in the sort of attacks which certainly middle class Dominicans in Santiago suffer, just as they do in Puerto Plata and elsewhere. There is a bigger picture than ghetto problems. People come OUT from the barrios into other areas.

With all the respect that the Ram?rez family deserves, especially regarding the case of their beloved Vanessa; I must say that her tragic death could had been avoided if she had not insisted on keeping her cell phone.

Yes, the fact that three very young males, perhaps unemployed and disenfranchised, wanted to steal her celular phone is outrageous. However, based on all reports concerning this issue that I have read, the guys shot her after she attempted to put up a struggle to keep her celular phone.

Perhaps, if she would have given the guys her phone, maybe she would still be alive today.

This I say with as much respect as the Ram?rez family deserves in normal circumstances, much more concerning this issue.

But, it's something I have been thinking about for a while. For certain, if someone manages to mug me (God forbid) and they want my wallet, if they are pointing a gun at me, I will give them what they want rather than make a fuss about it, especially if its more than one guy against me.
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By the way, here are a few tips on how you can buy some time in case of an emergency, such as someone trying to mug you or force you into a car or something.

Always carry something in your hand wherever you go. Preferrably carry either a book (ie. a novel with a flat spine) or a bottle of water with at least some water in it.

The reason is, if someone attempts to do something to you, you can take the book, hold it firm in your right (or left hand) and with all your might shove aim to the nose of the perpetrator and shove the spine of the book into his nose. The same can be done with a bottle of water and if the bottle has some water in it, it will magnify the strength and the severity with which it will hit the perpetrator.

You can also hold your five fingers in a straight position, but together and shab your fingers into the eyes of the perpetrator. Always aim to his/her cheek bones. The reason is because in a situation, you will most likely be scared or shaky, etc and aiming might not be your best. If you aim to his/her cheek bone, you fingers will inevitably slide up into his/her eyes causing the temporary discomfort. Such discomfort will be enough to cause the perpetrator to stop and loose his attention/focus.

At that moment, quickly take both of your hands and with the palm slam both of them as hard as you can onto his/her ears. Doing this hard enough will cause a person to loose his/her balance and become disoriented.

At this time, you should have enough time to run towards help.

BTW, this is stuff my girlfriend learned when she took a self-defense course.
-NALs

 

[Chris]

With all the respect that the Ram?rez family deserves, especially regarding the case of their beloved Vanessa; I must say that her tragic death could had been avoided if she had not insisted on keeping her cell phone.

And this is classic 'blame the victim' spin. If only the victim did not do this, or she should have done that. This is classic stuff! To make the victim the guilty. We see it all over the world today.

Vanessa did nothing wrong! She was the innocent. Don't let anyone tell you 'she should have' this, or 'she should have' that!

 

[laurapasinifan]

not to harp on crime. but I vividly remember my first trip to the DR for hunting 5 years ago. when we went out chasing women my buddies all packed handguns. they never went anyplace without them. It was so obvious that they worried about getting robbed or worse, because while we waited to pick up a girl from her apartment one night, the driver of our car reached down under the seat and pulled up his pistol and put it in his lap when a man walked up and past the front of our parked car. He put it back down after the guy was 75 feet past, then he did the same thing again when the next guy walked past. I dont know if he thought someone was out to get him or what. But this virgin( to the DR) mind inside my head was thinking we must be at risk here.

well it doesnt seem as bad now, but when i go out with my buddies who live here they ALWAYS take their pistols....its like more important than the wallet or car keys....why do you think that 5 or 6 dominicans who live here full time and are upper middle class or higher, have great houses and cars and buisnesses, and they barricade themselves because super heavy duty metal walls , with exspensive alarms, do that???.....they do it for a very real reason.

the well to do in the country HAVE to be way way more at risk of being a crime victim than many lead us to believe here. If a well armed educated criminal wants to make a hit...he wont be doing it against the guy pushing the hotdog cart..I have had buddies be the victims of serious attempts at crime against them...once it was four off duty police officers.....they were going to rob him and steal his nice rental SUV..

I dont post this to really put down the country...but it is real and pretending it isnt there, is like lying.

i dont know if the petty crime from drug addicts is epidemic there or even close, but since the police are paid off so much, you have to believe they are paid for a REASON... from sources that have available cash and a need to have to pay off the police....it aint for contraband cigars or stolen pigs or platano, thats for sure

bob

 

[Identity_check]

Okay Matt, you decided to quote Mountain Frog's negative comments about DR but to ignore my negative comments about UK. You say 'common sense tells you things are going to get a lot worse before they get better'. Are we talking about DR or UK here? In the UK, a judge who wanted to send a paedophile to jail couldn't because the jails are full, so he gave him a community service. I don't feel much safer knowing that paedophiles aren't being jailed in the UK, do you? If you want to gloss over what is crap about the UK and focus on what is crap about the Dom Rep, then of course it's not a place for you to go to live in. Alternatively, if you gloss over what is crap about the Dominican Republic and focus on what is crap in the UK, then you'd be off to the sun tomorrow.

If you try to take an over-view of the UK v DR, then you'll find good and bad points for both countries. Ignore one side of the coin and you'll make the answer that you want to hear, be that good or bad.

Rest assured KeithF i have not ignored your comments about the UK, the UK has its problems, of that there is no doubt.

Rest assured everyone, im reading every single word of every single post in this thread, and i value everybody's opinion on this matter.

I fully understand that crime and drug use tends to be area specific, so one persons experiance of the DR will be differant from another persons view due to living in differant locations around the island.

Regards

Matt

 

[AZB]

And this is classic 'blame the victim' spin. If only the victim did not do this, or she should have done that. This is classic stuff! To make the victim the guilty. We see it all over the world today.

Vanessa did nothing wrong! She was the innocent. Don't let anyone tell you 'she should have' this, or 'she should have' that!

Whatever you make out of it, but I still think if she didn't fight off the attackers, there was a good chance she would have been left unharmed. You are correct, she didn't deserve to be killed but in a situation like this, she should have let the phone go.
AZB