- Thread starter macocael
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use of preterit and imperfect vis a vis 3 verbs
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Hizo vs Hacia
Yes Lesley, you are correct. I had the opportunity to clarify from my tutor and as they say in spanish 'me equivoqu?'. My tutor was referring to my usage of Hizo fr?o when saying 'it used to be cold'. She confirmed that Hizo fr?o ayer is correct. What I am now understanding is that the imperfect tense can also be used for an activity that happened repeatedly in the past. i.e ''they used to call me John' will be 'me llamaban John'etc.
She also confirmed that in spain, 'have you eaten?' will be 'has comido?'
An interesting fact was that I was trying to interpret the title of the raulin rodriguez cd 'me la pusieron dificil' which she interpreted as 'they made it difficult for me' but she said that in spain, it would have been 'me lo pusieron dificil' and they rarely use 'la' in this situation but it is more common in latin america.
We are yet to interprete the meaning of 'Pongase para las cosas' . It is the title of a cuban song and we looked at the various uses of the verb Ponerse (ie to start, to put on ( a dress), to become (emotionally), to answer (the phone) etc but non seems to ring a bell. We did not have the ooportunity to listen to the song, which would have really helped but she did mention that perhaps it might be a slang that could be common in cuba or in latin america in general.
Any recommendations?
Muchisimas Gracias
Sholly ( a cibao valley lover)
Lesley D said:
Yes Lesley, you are correct. I had the opportunity to clarify from my tutor and as they say in spanish 'me equivoqu?'. My tutor was referring to my usage of Hizo fr?o when saying 'it used to be cold'. She confirmed that Hizo fr?o ayer is correct. What I am now understanding is that the imperfect tense can also be used for an activity that happened repeatedly in the past. i.e ''they used to call me John' will be 'me llamaban John'etc.
She also confirmed that in spain, 'have you eaten?' will be 'has comido?'
An interesting fact was that I was trying to interpret the title of the raulin rodriguez cd 'me la pusieron dificil' which she interpreted as 'they made it difficult for me' but she said that in spain, it would have been 'me lo pusieron dificil' and they rarely use 'la' in this situation but it is more common in latin america.
We are yet to interprete the meaning of 'Pongase para las cosas' . It is the title of a cuban song and we looked at the various uses of the verb Ponerse (ie to start, to put on ( a dress), to become (emotionally), to answer (the phone) etc but non seems to ring a bell. We did not have the ooportunity to listen to the song, which would have really helped but she did mention that perhaps it might be a slang that could be common in cuba or in latin america in general.
Any recommendations?
Muchisimas Gracias
Sholly ( a cibao valley lover)
Sholly24-
As long as you understand the difference at this point I will leave it at that. I was going to go into a little more detail but I don't want to confuse you. However, in brief 'hac?a fr?o ayer' is okay but another specific action like 'cuando sal?' is understood (although not mentioned) whereas 'hizo fr?o ayer' just refers to that fact that 'it was cold yesterday' as you mentioned in your second post.
Regarding 'have you eaten yet'. That's exactly my point. Spain favors the compound tenses and Latin America does not (en general). In Latin America 'has comido' would be 'comiste' for sure. I would never ask anyone 'has comido'. Honestly, it would sound strange to me.
As for 'me la pusieron dif?cil'. For sure that is correct for me but I just learned something new from you 'me lo pusieron dif?cil'. Again the usage of 'lo' instead of 'la' does not sound instinctive to me. In Spanish with lo/la sometimes you have to think what 'lo/la' represent(s). Me la pusieron dif?cil- what? la situaci?n. Do you understand?
As for the Cuban expression, I will leave that for Juancarlos but I will say 'p?ngase para las cosas' is new for me but I think I know what it means.
Well, Sholly24 you certainly are a pleasant person. If you have any more questions just ask me.
Te deseo mucha suerte,
-LDG.
As long as you understand the difference at this point I will leave it at that. I was going to go into a little more detail but I don't want to confuse you. However, in brief 'hac?a fr?o ayer' is okay but another specific action like 'cuando sal?' is understood (although not mentioned) whereas 'hizo fr?o ayer' just refers to that fact that 'it was cold yesterday' as you mentioned in your second post.
Regarding 'have you eaten yet'. That's exactly my point. Spain favors the compound tenses and Latin America does not (en general). In Latin America 'has comido' would be 'comiste' for sure. I would never ask anyone 'has comido'. Honestly, it would sound strange to me.
As for 'me la pusieron dif?cil'. For sure that is correct for me but I just learned something new from you 'me lo pusieron dif?cil'. Again the usage of 'lo' instead of 'la' does not sound instinctive to me. In Spanish with lo/la sometimes you have to think what 'lo/la' represent(s). Me la pusieron dif?cil- what? la situaci?n. Do you understand?
As for the Cuban expression, I will leave that for Juancarlos but I will say 'p?ngase para las cosas' is new for me but I think I know what it means.
Well, Sholly24 you certainly are a pleasant person. If you have any more questions just ask me.
Te deseo mucha suerte,
-LDG.
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Hi Lesley and Sholly,
This is the first time I see that expression "p?ngase para las cosas". It must be new slang in Cuba. I would guess that its meaning could be something like "mind your bussiness" or "take care of things that are really important" or who knows, perhaps it means wake-up! in the figurative sense. The thing is I had never heard this phrase before. There is a lot of slang in Cuba, as well as new meaning for old words, that is truly foreign to me. If I lived in Miami and were in touch with the latest Cubans arriving there, then I would have a better idea. It has been 7 years since I last visited the island and when I was there I spent most of the time with my relatives and pretty much stuck to conventional conversation. The only "new" phrase I heard constantly was "no es facil". It is not easy.
This is the first time I see that expression "p?ngase para las cosas". It must be new slang in Cuba. I would guess that its meaning could be something like "mind your bussiness" or "take care of things that are really important" or who knows, perhaps it means wake-up! in the figurative sense. The thing is I had never heard this phrase before. There is a lot of slang in Cuba, as well as new meaning for old words, that is truly foreign to me. If I lived in Miami and were in touch with the latest Cubans arriving there, then I would have a better idea. It has been 7 years since I last visited the island and when I was there I spent most of the time with my relatives and pretty much stuck to conventional conversation. The only "new" phrase I heard constantly was "no es facil". It is not easy.
Interesting thread!!!!!!!!!!!!
Lesley I've noticed that hispanohablantes tend to use the "pret?rito simple" more so than "pret?rito perfecto" more or so based on their level of education(my own opinion). The more you encounter people from latin america that have gone to higher learning institutions (universities) or well read use the compound tenses.
As a french speaker I tend to feel more comfortable using the compound tenses "pret?rito perfecto" rather than the "pret?rito simple" which is more common but both grammatically correct. IMO, using the auxiliary correctly demonstrates the person have mastered the language and have more options available depending on the setting and environment..
Example:
J'ai parl? avec Lesley= he hablado con Lesley or habl? con Lesley
J'ai bu= he bebido or beb?
All the above are correct again depending on the individual and the environment wanting to sound eloquent with more finesse..the pret?rito perfecto prevails...
One other thing I've noticed is many hispano hablantes (especially in the caribbean) have no idea how to spell the auxilary verb "haber"
too many times I've come across..
e hablado= rather than he hablado
a hablado= rather than ha hablado
I've even seen the use of the past participle of irregular verbs such as "escribido" rather than "escrito".
No soy cubano but I would translate "p?ngase para las cosas" as
Mind you business or stay in your place...
great post...
Lesley I've noticed that hispanohablantes tend to use the "pret?rito simple" more so than "pret?rito perfecto" more or so based on their level of education(my own opinion). The more you encounter people from latin america that have gone to higher learning institutions (universities) or well read use the compound tenses.
As a french speaker I tend to feel more comfortable using the compound tenses "pret?rito perfecto" rather than the "pret?rito simple" which is more common but both grammatically correct. IMO, using the auxiliary correctly demonstrates the person have mastered the language and have more options available depending on the setting and environment..
Example:
J'ai parl? avec Lesley= he hablado con Lesley or habl? con Lesley
J'ai bu= he bebido or beb?
All the above are correct again depending on the individual and the environment wanting to sound eloquent with more finesse..the pret?rito perfecto prevails...
One other thing I've noticed is many hispano hablantes (especially in the caribbean) have no idea how to spell the auxilary verb "haber"
too many times I've come across..
e hablado= rather than he hablado
a hablado= rather than ha hablado
I've even seen the use of the past participle of irregular verbs such as "escribido" rather than "escrito".
No soy cubano but I would translate "p?ngase para las cosas" as
Mind you business or stay in your place...
great post...
Quisqueya-
?Qu? tal? - Siempre es un placer hablar contigo. Espero que todo te vaya bien.
Regarding the compound tenses it's actually not a question of education it's a question of how the Spanish language evolved in Spain vs. Latin America. It's very important to make that distinction. As I said earlier in the thread. Only 10% of the world's Spanish speaking population lives in Spain. The bulk lives in Latin America or is from Latin America therefore diversity is a must.
In the many references I have had to read over time the usage of tenses is always a topic in Spanish grammar as compared to the other Latin based languages. Spanish is the only Romance based language that uses the preterit tense in speech as compared to French or Italian. It is used in Spain too however, the usage of the compound tenses is more prevalent there due to its geographical location. Spain, France and Italy being the 'mother' of each respective language are far removed from the Caribbean therefore speech patterns etc. that became prevalent in the Caribbean are due to outside influences. However, verb tense usage in Spain is comparable to France and Italy.
I must note using your examples that there is a difference between 'J'ai parl? avec Lesley= he hablado con Lesley or habl? con Lesley'.
Equivalent meaning: J'ai parl? avec Lesley = He hablado con Lesley= I have spoken to Lesley
Equivalent meaning: Habl? con Lesley = I spoke to Lesley. ----> French does not use the equivalent form of the preterit in the spoken language. Do you see the difference?
In Spanish if you say 'he hablado con xxx' it refers to the recent past. If you say 'habl? con xxx ' se refiere a un tiempo m?s lejano'. It's further in the past. However, both are used in the spoken language equally.
It's not a question of education because if you use the compound tense 'he hablado' time is really a factor whereas if you use the preterit 'habl?' it's in the past but with no reference to time. In Spanish it would be grammatically incorrect to say 'Ayer he hablado con Lesley'. It s/b 'Ayer habl? con Lesley'. That's where the education of speaker comes into play. Distinguishing between the usage of the two BUT not choosing one over the other just by preference.
Regarding the spelling issues in the Caribbean needless to say it's a disgrace. I don't what it is and frankly I don't focus on it anymore. Spelling words without the [h] when they should have the [h] is unacceptable among the other errors in orthography that prevail. Remember reading in Spanish or any language cures all spelling issues but in general people don't read voluntarily. I am the opposite you have pull the book out of my hand.
-LDG.
?Qu? tal? - Siempre es un placer hablar contigo. Espero que todo te vaya bien.
Regarding the compound tenses it's actually not a question of education it's a question of how the Spanish language evolved in Spain vs. Latin America. It's very important to make that distinction. As I said earlier in the thread. Only 10% of the world's Spanish speaking population lives in Spain. The bulk lives in Latin America or is from Latin America therefore diversity is a must.
In the many references I have had to read over time the usage of tenses is always a topic in Spanish grammar as compared to the other Latin based languages. Spanish is the only Romance based language that uses the preterit tense in speech as compared to French or Italian. It is used in Spain too however, the usage of the compound tenses is more prevalent there due to its geographical location. Spain, France and Italy being the 'mother' of each respective language are far removed from the Caribbean therefore speech patterns etc. that became prevalent in the Caribbean are due to outside influences. However, verb tense usage in Spain is comparable to France and Italy.
I must note using your examples that there is a difference between 'J'ai parl? avec Lesley= he hablado con Lesley or habl? con Lesley'.
Equivalent meaning: J'ai parl? avec Lesley = He hablado con Lesley= I have spoken to Lesley
Equivalent meaning: Habl? con Lesley = I spoke to Lesley. ----> French does not use the equivalent form of the preterit in the spoken language. Do you see the difference?
In Spanish if you say 'he hablado con xxx' it refers to the recent past. If you say 'habl? con xxx ' se refiere a un tiempo m?s lejano'. It's further in the past. However, both are used in the spoken language equally.
It's not a question of education because if you use the compound tense 'he hablado' time is really a factor whereas if you use the preterit 'habl?' it's in the past but with no reference to time. In Spanish it would be grammatically incorrect to say 'Ayer he hablado con Lesley'. It s/b 'Ayer habl? con Lesley'. That's where the education of speaker comes into play. Distinguishing between the usage of the two BUT not choosing one over the other just by preference.
Regarding the spelling issues in the Caribbean needless to say it's a disgrace. I don't what it is and frankly I don't focus on it anymore. Spelling words without the [h] when they should have the [h] is unacceptable among the other errors in orthography that prevail. Remember reading in Spanish or any language cures all spelling issues but in general people don't read voluntarily. I am the opposite you have pull the book out of my hand.
-LDG.
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The spelling problems are directed related to literacy and reading,and this goes for any other country. I taught in the States for years, at good colleges, and I saw this sort of problem all the time. Why? Because even in the States, where we do have high levels of literacy, people dont read enough, and literature is considered something for eggheads. It may also be the switch to phonetic based teaching in the early years, but I cannot comment on that.
Here in St Domingo the lack of reading is a constant feature of the landscape. I discussed this with Tordok on another thread. Anthropologists make a distinction between oral and written cultures, and while I dont want to press the argument too much, because after all a developing nation is obviously well into being a culture based on writing, but it does seem to me that elements of oral culture prevail here and hold sway in interesting ways. People here are very quick, verbally. They will hear a song and can repeat its lyrics instantly. Much of the traditional culture is still communicated orally as well as through song and religious chants, etc.
While I would hate to see all that go, I still would like to see greater emphasis placed on reading and various literacy campaigns launched. Oprah Winfrey's little reading club gig did wonders for getting people to read books (though of course the books were invariably of a certain genre and none of it was intellectually very challenging). Maybe we could have Jochy or some other TV emcee develop a reading segment on his show! I dont know, but we need to work for change.
This has been a particularly informative thread,and the discussion of compound tenses was very helpful. I will try to think of some other element of the Spanish language that causes new speakers problems and post on that.
Here in St Domingo the lack of reading is a constant feature of the landscape. I discussed this with Tordok on another thread. Anthropologists make a distinction between oral and written cultures, and while I dont want to press the argument too much, because after all a developing nation is obviously well into being a culture based on writing, but it does seem to me that elements of oral culture prevail here and hold sway in interesting ways. People here are very quick, verbally. They will hear a song and can repeat its lyrics instantly. Much of the traditional culture is still communicated orally as well as through song and religious chants, etc.
While I would hate to see all that go, I still would like to see greater emphasis placed on reading and various literacy campaigns launched. Oprah Winfrey's little reading club gig did wonders for getting people to read books (though of course the books were invariably of a certain genre and none of it was intellectually very challenging). Maybe we could have Jochy or some other TV emcee develop a reading segment on his show! I dont know, but we need to work for change.
This has been a particularly informative thread,and the discussion of compound tenses was very helpful. I will try to think of some other element of the Spanish language that causes new speakers problems and post on that.
bonjour Lesley,
I love reading your thread because they are so refreshing "exhale" and informative..As a person who loves learning new languages I admire your expertise especially "en el castellano".
Yes I definitely see the difference and concur. I guess I should've made my example a little clearer. You're absolutely right regarding your examples and clarifying my examples as well.. Bueno, no tengo nada que a?adir.. You are doing a tremendous job.
ONe thing, I've noticed that I sometimes get a mental freeze..I can start a conversation in english and forget the word I need to say in english and my brain searches for the word in french, kreyol, or spanish..what is that? Or I can speak the other three languages and completely forget a word in the language I'm speaking in...Do you have any idea what might have triggered this epidemic..I have virtually no accent in any of the above languages but at times I get a mental freeze..out of no where..bueno tengo que irme se?orita. que est?s bien..
the pleasure is mine mademoiselle...
I love reading your thread because they are so refreshing "exhale" and informative..As a person who loves learning new languages I admire your expertise especially "en el castellano".
Yes I definitely see the difference and concur. I guess I should've made my example a little clearer. You're absolutely right regarding your examples and clarifying my examples as well.. Bueno, no tengo nada que a?adir.. You are doing a tremendous job.
ONe thing, I've noticed that I sometimes get a mental freeze..I can start a conversation in english and forget the word I need to say in english and my brain searches for the word in french, kreyol, or spanish..what is that? Or I can speak the other three languages and completely forget a word in the language I'm speaking in...Do you have any idea what might have triggered this epidemic..I have virtually no accent in any of the above languages but at times I get a mental freeze..out of no where..bueno tengo que irme se?orita. que est?s bien..
the pleasure is mine mademoiselle...
Lesley D said:
Lesley,
What I was told is that 'has comido' will be used for the most recent past, for example, if it happened in the same day but if it was referring to yesterday, then 'comiste' will be used and I think you mentioned that already above.
I am guessing that the use of 'la' or 'lo' in 'me la pusieron dificil' might depend on what the speaker is talking about. If the issue was about 'la situac?on' or 'la tarea' or something that is feminine, then 'la' should be appropriate but if it is about 'el trabajo' or 'el asunto' or something masculine, then I am guessing that 'lo' would be appropriate. Somehow the speaker did not make it obvious, but since he knows what he is talking about, the use of 'la' or 'lo' might be instinctive. I am only thinking it through but I might be wrong since at best I am still at an intermediate level.
The song 'Pongase para las cosas was sung by a cuban group called 'Estrellas Del Areito' and they sing the cuban traditional 'son' music. I am also guessing that the song title omitted some information which can be obtained by listening to the song and which should put more clarity on the meaning.
Thanks for the good word and all your help on this forum. You indeed are an excellent helper and resource on this board.
Muchisimas gracias de nueva
Sholly
Quisqueya said:
I am the same Quisqueya, I cannot imagine life without reading. And I read everything. But there are people who never developed the interest: which could be a failure of their schooling. There are children, for example my niece, who live in homes without books, but who love to read because the school inculcates the desire to do so and provides them the opportunity; therefore it is crucial here that the schools really push reading, and most don't.
There are also people whose talent leads them in a more scientific or mathematical direction, like my brother, who is a whiz with algebraic formulae, but has to struggle with his reading, and his spelling is none too good. But he does in fact read, and he can certainly discuss lots of major ideas.
Btw, Quisqueya, you are the only one on this board that I know of who admits to speaking Kreyol. I am impressed -- how did this come about? I am just beginning to pick it up myself, learning some basic phrases and grammar, getting some conversation with friends here. Goes slow because I mainly am focussing on perfecting my Spanish, but I am going to need the Kreyol too.
Merci Quisqueya/ Gracias Sholly24-
Quisqueya- The mental block that you experience is perfectly normal. Remember it happens because there are several languages co-existing in your mind at the same time. This is quite a normal phenomenon and it happens to the best of multilingual speakers. It happens to me as well but not often. The odd time in the middle of speaking one language a word from another will escape but it happens.
One suggestion I have is to establish balance in usage and be consistent. If you speak one language predominantly all day use the other two for reading and/ or watching TV. That's what I do. That way I am consistently using all three in some way and the vocabulary for each language is readily available.
Lo que te pasa de vez en cuando es normal. No te preocupes.
Sholly- It's good to analyze but don't analyze too much at this stage in the game. Focus more on the grammar that you are being taught. The fine tuning comes long after.
Yes, I mentioned the difference between has comido and comiste in my post #26. It's an important concept. Have a look at my post when you have a moment. In Latin America, however, the preterit would still be used in the recent past in many scenarios.
Again with 'me la pusieron dif?cil' it depends what it's referring to or it could just be very general with 'la' and always refer to a situation. I agree with your teacher in this case. Regarding the usage with 'lo' with that phrase my first instinct is that it's neuter. In Spanish the neuter form 'lo' does exist. Therefore 'me lo pusieron dif?cil' in Spain would be preference for the neuter usage in my opinion. It's the same as pasarla bien y pasarlo bien (to have a good time). Both are used in Spanish. Regional differences dictate which one is used over the other.
BTW- se dice 'de nuevo' y no 'de nueva'.
-LDG.
Quisqueya- The mental block that you experience is perfectly normal. Remember it happens because there are several languages co-existing in your mind at the same time. This is quite a normal phenomenon and it happens to the best of multilingual speakers. It happens to me as well but not often. The odd time in the middle of speaking one language a word from another will escape but it happens.
One suggestion I have is to establish balance in usage and be consistent. If you speak one language predominantly all day use the other two for reading and/ or watching TV. That's what I do. That way I am consistently using all three in some way and the vocabulary for each language is readily available.
Lo que te pasa de vez en cuando es normal. No te preocupes.
Sholly- It's good to analyze but don't analyze too much at this stage in the game. Focus more on the grammar that you are being taught. The fine tuning comes long after.
Yes, I mentioned the difference between has comido and comiste in my post #26. It's an important concept. Have a look at my post when you have a moment. In Latin America, however, the preterit would still be used in the recent past in many scenarios.
Again with 'me la pusieron dif?cil' it depends what it's referring to or it could just be very general with 'la' and always refer to a situation. I agree with your teacher in this case. Regarding the usage with 'lo' with that phrase my first instinct is that it's neuter. In Spanish the neuter form 'lo' does exist. Therefore 'me lo pusieron dif?cil' in Spain would be preference for the neuter usage in my opinion. It's the same as pasarla bien y pasarlo bien (to have a good time). Both are used in Spanish. Regional differences dictate which one is used over the other.
BTW- se dice 'de nuevo' y no 'de nueva'.
-LDG.
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Macocael,
I am glad that I am not the only one that suffers from this great addiction "READING".
Well, I kind of cheated learning kreyol so you shouldn't be that impressed. I am Haitian thus that makes kreyol my mother tongue. It's a very beautiful language that brings words to life and very complex because it is constantly evolving. The base of kreyol is french with west african influence, spanish, english and the arawak/taino natives. And we are not the only ones to speak such a beautiful language. These countries are also part of the creolephone community Louisiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Martin, French Guyana, Dominica, St. Lucia, Seychelles. I suggest you learn the basic grammar and indulge in conversation with a kreyol speaker as often as you can and you too will be part of the creolephone community.
Sak pase= What's up?
Komen ou y?= How are you?
mwen la or mwen bwen= I'm ok.
mesi= Thank you
Good luck and enjoy learning such a beautiful language.
I am glad that I am not the only one that suffers from this great addiction "READING".
Well, I kind of cheated learning kreyol so you shouldn't be that impressed. I am Haitian thus that makes kreyol my mother tongue. It's a very beautiful language that brings words to life and very complex because it is constantly evolving. The base of kreyol is french with west african influence, spanish, english and the arawak/taino natives. And we are not the only ones to speak such a beautiful language. These countries are also part of the creolephone community Louisiana, Guadeloupe, Martinique, St. Martin, French Guyana, Dominica, St. Lucia, Seychelles. I suggest you learn the basic grammar and indulge in conversation with a kreyol speaker as often as you can and you too will be part of the creolephone community.
Sak pase= What's up?
Komen ou y?= How are you?
mwen la or mwen bwen= I'm ok.
mesi= Thank you
Good luck and enjoy learning such a beautiful language.
Quisqueya, I assure you I am enjoying it. My work is compelling me more and more to travel to Haiti and deal with Haitian issues so the ability to communicate is crucial. I dont like to hire people to do my communicating; I work solo. I have a bunch of Haitian friends right here where I live to talk with, so there is no lack of practice opportunities. As I start to make some progress, I will look you up for more advanced conversation!!!
Lesley D,
Thank you for your suggestions. I've noticed this mental blockage happens only when I am speaking to a mono-lingual person because I can't swtich to any of other language. I've gotten so comfortable speaking franglais, creolanglais,creopa?ol etc etc with family members that I tend to forget that people dont understand those languages. Thus, mixing languages too much in middle of a sentence is not a good idea.
Ok now back to the grammar. LO/LA are direct pronouns if my memory serves me correctly and as you mention above have some exceptions. But I've notices many hispanohablantes as well as spanish people(spaniards) have some problems with pronouns. which I believe falls into the "la?smo, lo?smo,le?smo"). Sholly, I believe this is something you need to discuss with you professor and of course Lesley D can explain the above to us. I will open with some examples and let the "profe" take over.
Yo lo veo = I see him
Yo la veo = I see her.
Yo lo veo = I see it . (una cosa)
A mi hermano lo veo todos los d?as.
A mi hermano le veo todos los d?as.
A mi hermana le veo todos los d?as.
(note one of the above is definitely incorrect and is absolutely a no no)
Ok I've set my examples. We will get so many opinions which even native speakers most of the times have know idea themselves..Lesley D take it away..
Thank you for your suggestions. I've noticed this mental blockage happens only when I am speaking to a mono-lingual person because I can't swtich to any of other language. I've gotten so comfortable speaking franglais, creolanglais,creopa?ol etc etc with family members that I tend to forget that people dont understand those languages. Thus, mixing languages too much in middle of a sentence is not a good idea.
Ok now back to the grammar. LO/LA are direct pronouns if my memory serves me correctly and as you mention above have some exceptions. But I've notices many hispanohablantes as well as spanish people(spaniards) have some problems with pronouns. which I believe falls into the "la?smo, lo?smo,le?smo"). Sholly, I believe this is something you need to discuss with you professor and of course Lesley D can explain the above to us. I will open with some examples and let the "profe" take over.
Yo lo veo = I see him
Yo la veo = I see her.
Yo lo veo = I see it . (una cosa)
A mi hermano lo veo todos los d?as.
A mi hermano le veo todos los d?as.
A mi hermana le veo todos los d?as.
(note one of the above is definitely incorrect and is absolutely a no no)
Ok I've set my examples. We will get so many opinions which even native speakers most of the times have know idea themselves..Lesley D take it away..
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Quisqueya et al-
The lo/la (direct object pronouns) usage as well as the indirect pronoun (le) usage in Spanish is difficult for two reasons. People err without knowing that they are speaking incorrectly and secondly the regional usage practically has taken over regardless of grammar rules. Certain verbs however are transitive meaning they only can take a direct object pronoun and some are intransitive meaning they can only take an indirect object pronoun and some are both.
For example decir and dar are classic examples of Spanish verbs that can take both pronouns but the speaker has to use them correctly depending on what they want to say. Llamar, conocer and ayudar are also examples of verbs whose accompanying pronoun will vary by region (both pronouns are used i.e. regionalisms). Again you will see the Spain vs. LA dynamic and even variations within Latin America.
You used the correct grammatical terms for this grammar concept. Lo?smo, la?smo and le?smo refer to incorrect usage of each pronoun. For example if a speaker uses lo when they should use le and vice versa. However, keep in mind although le?smo is prevalent and has gained territory in the grammatical sphere the usage of le when it s/b la is still considered severely incorrect whereas if a speaker uses le and it s/b lo (true le?smo) it won't cause as much controversy.
Your examples above are good and actually more than one is incorrect. To make these discussions interesting I think more than one poster needs to respond because if I respond then it just becomes a reading exercise and nothing else. When Sholly asked me hizo fr?o vs. hac?a fr?o telling him would have been easy but I think he learned more by asking his teacher, coming back with feedback etc. and then reading my comments. I will say pronouns are tough to understand in Spanish but not impossible to master.
-LDG.
PD. M.A.R.- please look at those examples again.
The lo/la (direct object pronouns) usage as well as the indirect pronoun (le) usage in Spanish is difficult for two reasons. People err without knowing that they are speaking incorrectly and secondly the regional usage practically has taken over regardless of grammar rules. Certain verbs however are transitive meaning they only can take a direct object pronoun and some are intransitive meaning they can only take an indirect object pronoun and some are both.
For example decir and dar are classic examples of Spanish verbs that can take both pronouns but the speaker has to use them correctly depending on what they want to say. Llamar, conocer and ayudar are also examples of verbs whose accompanying pronoun will vary by region (both pronouns are used i.e. regionalisms). Again you will see the Spain vs. LA dynamic and even variations within Latin America.
You used the correct grammatical terms for this grammar concept. Lo?smo, la?smo and le?smo refer to incorrect usage of each pronoun. For example if a speaker uses lo when they should use le and vice versa. However, keep in mind although le?smo is prevalent and has gained territory in the grammatical sphere the usage of le when it s/b la is still considered severely incorrect whereas if a speaker uses le and it s/b lo (true le?smo) it won't cause as much controversy.
Your examples above are good and actually more than one is incorrect. To make these discussions interesting I think more than one poster needs to respond because if I respond then it just becomes a reading exercise and nothing else. When Sholly asked me hizo fr?o vs. hac?a fr?o telling him would have been easy but I think he learned more by asking his teacher, coming back with feedback etc. and then reading my comments. I will say pronouns are tough to understand in Spanish but not impossible to master.
-LDG.
PD. M.A.R.- please look at those examples again.
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Lesley D,
Thank you for your input I hope I am not rocking the thread by inticing it a little. I think Sholly would really get a bag out of her spanish course if she learned how to use the pronouns correctly. Thus, I decide to dabble into the ever ending pronouns in spanish which I personally give up discussing wtih native spanish speakers. I remember them making fun of me because according to some I sounded too proper. Thus, I had to apply the incorrect pronoun to fit in.. Deep down it tore me apart to use incorrect grammar...
I hope we get some more input from other posters..especially native spanish speakers..this would be a great task and learning experience for new learners and surprising experience to natives who think they've been using the correct pronoun all along...c'est dommage...
Note: Lesley the others are accepted by native speakers and I think even the RAE..You should know more than me since I dont care to much of what "Pepito" in espa?a opinion might be in some aspects. I believe all languages are alive, breathing and changing due to culture & technology. Regulation is important as well but sometimes too much regulations can detrimental to the progess of a language. Perfect example is french...there too too too strict on allowing their language from evolving that they are now losing francophiles to hispanophiles.. This can be something for another thread..
Bueno..Hasta Luego
Thank you for your input I hope I am not rocking the thread by inticing it a little. I think Sholly would really get a bag out of her spanish course if she learned how to use the pronouns correctly. Thus, I decide to dabble into the ever ending pronouns in spanish which I personally give up discussing wtih native spanish speakers. I remember them making fun of me because according to some I sounded too proper. Thus, I had to apply the incorrect pronoun to fit in..
Deep down it tore me apart to use incorrect grammar...I hope we get some more input from other posters..especially native spanish speakers..this would be a great task and learning experience for new learners and surprising experience to natives who think they've been using the correct pronoun all along...c'est dommage...
Note: Lesley the others are accepted by native speakers and I think even the RAE..You should know more than me since I dont care to much of what "Pepito" in espa?a opinion might be in some aspects. I believe all languages are alive, breathing and changing due to culture & technology. Regulation is important as well but sometimes too much regulations can detrimental to the progess of a language. Perfect example is french...there too too too strict on allowing their language from evolving that they are now losing francophiles to hispanophiles.. This can be something for another thread..
Bueno..Hasta Luego
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Since I am working on pronouns right now I want to tackle this. The test is a good one, becuase there is some confusion in the use of the direct and indirect object pronouns.
In Spanish it is proper to say, for example, "Estoy escribiendo a Teresa" or "le estoy escribiendo." The "le" is the indirect object pronoun. The same holds true in English but the forms dont change so we dont notice it: I am writing a letter (direct object) to Teresa (indirect object), or I am writing it to her.
While the direct object pronoun does indicate the gender (la, lo), the indirect does not. "Le" is used for both genders, and for this reason sometimes the Spanish will include "a ?l" or "a ella"to clarify the situation: "le escribo mucho a ella."
Now let's look at a trickier phrase. My grammar gives the following example as a correct form:
"A tu hermano lo conozco bien." The use of the preposition "a" in front of the object "tu hermano" might lead you to think that you were dealing with an indirect object and thus "le" rather than "lo" is the pronoun to use, but that is not the case. Why, I will leave it to Lesley D to explain.
Now in the example you give Quisqueya, it would be correct to say "la veo" or "lo veo". My grammar gives the following example:
"A Mar?a la vemos algunas veces."
The verb "ver" takes a direct object "la." However, as my grammar also notes, "Le" and "Les" are often used in Spanish instead of "lo" and "los" when referring to people, and it gives the following examples:
Le/lo encontraron en el cine (they met him at the cinema)
Les/los o?mos llegar. (we heard them coming)
So you see that while the direct object pronoun would be correct in the case you cite, you may also use the indirect object pronoun because you are referring to a person. That is how I understand it so far. However, Professor Lesley D has to weigh in here to give the final answer.
PS I see that Lesley beat me to the post but decided to leave room for us to discuss it ourselves. Excellent. But now I would like to know just what is wrong in the examples quisqueya cited. Ithink what i have just written above is correct.
We should have started another thread with this example, because the use and positioning of the object pronoun is another major problem and could use its own thread.
In Spanish it is proper to say, for example, "Estoy escribiendo a Teresa" or "le estoy escribiendo." The "le" is the indirect object pronoun. The same holds true in English but the forms dont change so we dont notice it: I am writing a letter (direct object) to Teresa (indirect object), or I am writing it to her.
While the direct object pronoun does indicate the gender (la, lo), the indirect does not. "Le" is used for both genders, and for this reason sometimes the Spanish will include "a ?l" or "a ella"to clarify the situation: "le escribo mucho a ella."
Now let's look at a trickier phrase. My grammar gives the following example as a correct form:
"A tu hermano lo conozco bien." The use of the preposition "a" in front of the object "tu hermano" might lead you to think that you were dealing with an indirect object and thus "le" rather than "lo" is the pronoun to use, but that is not the case. Why, I will leave it to Lesley D to explain.
Now in the example you give Quisqueya, it would be correct to say "la veo" or "lo veo". My grammar gives the following example:
"A Mar?a la vemos algunas veces."
The verb "ver" takes a direct object "la." However, as my grammar also notes, "Le" and "Les" are often used in Spanish instead of "lo" and "los" when referring to people, and it gives the following examples:
Le/lo encontraron en el cine (they met him at the cinema)
Les/los o?mos llegar. (we heard them coming)
So you see that while the direct object pronoun would be correct in the case you cite, you may also use the indirect object pronoun because you are referring to a person. That is how I understand it so far. However, Professor Lesley D has to weigh in here to give the final answer.
PS I see that Lesley beat me to the post but decided to leave room for us to discuss it ourselves. Excellent. But now I would like to know just what is wrong in the examples quisqueya cited. Ithink what i have just written above is correct.
We should have started another thread with this example, because the use and positioning of the object pronoun is another major problem and could use its own thread.
Macocael,
Thanks for joining in..Let the games begin and indeed "pronouns" need a new fresh thread better yet maybe a website dedicated solely for that purpose. Your inputs were excellent hold on to your hat and get ready to go on a rollercoaster ride...Yes, I too, believe Prof. Lesley D left room for great discussion..I suggest you look up "le?smo,lo?smo & la?smo" in your book and you'll understand why so much hispanohablantes & Spaniards themselves have a ? mark regarding this topic...Bonne Chance..Oh, one other thing..please do not relate to pronouns in English to understand spanish pronouns. I find it more confusing.."grasping it from a latin based language(french,italian etc etc) is easier...it worked for me a long time ago.." due to your example in your thread..
El quiskeyano ==Haitiano pa' q' sepa
Thanks for joining in..Let the games begin and indeed "pronouns" need a new fresh thread better yet maybe a website dedicated solely for that purpose. Your inputs were excellent hold on to your hat and get ready to go on a rollercoaster ride...Yes, I too, believe Prof. Lesley D left room for great discussion..I suggest you look up "le?smo,lo?smo & la?smo" in your book and you'll understand why so much hispanohablantes & Spaniards themselves have a ? mark regarding this topic...Bonne Chance..Oh, one other thing..please do not relate to pronouns in English to understand spanish pronouns. I find it more confusing.."grasping it from a latin based language(french,italian etc etc) is easier...it worked for me a long time ago.." due to your example in your thread..
El quiskeyano ==Haitiano pa' q' sepa
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