50,000 Haitians could be kicked out of the US

USA DOC

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Do you have proof of non-citizens of the US voting illegally in US elections?

The Dominicans I know are not about to have your so-called right way to think any time soon.

...all the people I am around in the DR are Dominicans....not one gringo....their thoughts on Haitians are much the same... sad to say but their ideas on how to solve the Haitian problem in the DR are alike....these ideas the Dominicans have , from what I can tell ,are from a few hundred years of interaction with Haiti.....Doc.......
 
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ExDR

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I hope this is not viewed as an opportunity to remove 50 k potential dem voters in Florida. Perhaps the DR can extend a warm welcoming hand to their Haitian brothers and prove that love wins over hate

That's an idiotic statement. They have a temporary visa, not citizenship. Besides, if your statement was true, the Emperor would not have won.
 

windeguy

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..all the people I am around in the DR are Dominicans....not one gringo....their thoughts on Haitians are much the same... sad to say but their ideas on how to solve the Haitian problem in the DR are alike....these ideas the Dominicans have , from what I can tell ,are from a few hundred years of interaction with Haiti.....Doc.......

My family is Dominican. I am sure they share the same ideas on how to deal with Haitians. But, back to the US, since this forum does not allow discussions on that word.

Has there been any news on how many Haitians are being deported from the USA?
 
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ExDR

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...all the people I am around in the DR are Dominicans....not one gringo....their thoughts on Haitians are much the same... sad to say but their ideas on how to solve the Haitian problem in the DR are alike....these ideas the Dominicans have , from what I can tell ,are from a few hundred years of interaction with Haiti.....Doc.......

That's the problem with DR's, they hold a damn grudge forever! When my mom talked about Haitians she would always go back to their occupation of the DR. A while back a politician name Pena Gomez ran for president and she said no way in hell is a Haitian going to be president of the Republic. He was of Haitian decent, but born in the DR. It did not matter anyway. DR's do not know how to forget or forgive. If Japan or Germany had attacked the DR, they would be not hated and lured to the island. The difference is that Japan, Germany has a great economy and natural resources while poor Haiti has nothing but needed people. We continue to demonize the residents of such a poor country, but stay quiet when the political leaders steal them blind. The DR is not racist in the sense of racism, but they sure discriminate against the poor even their own DR's. It's pretty much the same way it's been since Spain colonize the island. If you are poor or uneducated in the DR, you are a lower class citizen.
 
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Gabriela

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That's the problem with DR's, they hold a damn grudge forever! When my mom talked about Haitians she would always go back to their occupation of the DR. A while back a politician name Pena Gomez ran for president and she said no way in hell is a Haitian going to be president of the Republic. He was of Haitian decent, but born in the DR. It did not matter anyway. DR's do not know how to forget or forgive. If Japan or Germany had attacked the DR, they would be not hated and lured to the island. The difference is that Japan, Germany has a great economy and natural resources while poor Haiti has nothing but needed people. We continue to demonize the residents of such a poor country, but stay quiet when the political leaders steal them blind. The DR is not racist in the sense of racism, but they sure discriminate against the poor even their own DR's. It's pretty much the same way it's been since Spain colonize the island. If you are poor or uneducated in the DR, you are a lower class citizen.



I was born in the DR, and had white immigrant grandparents. Yes, there is racism. Or at least there was--perhaps it's disappeared?  When my uncle married a dark-skinned Dominican, my blonde haired blue eyed grandmother treated her and the baby horribly. When the next baby had blonde hair, she was treated like gold. Then there was my grandfather who wouldn't stop for dark skinned children as he drove... Again, this was my experience until the 1980s....  If you want to go back to the Trujillo years, read about how he powdered his skin white to remove any hint of his Haitian ancestry.
 

Naked_Snake

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I was born in the DR, and had white immigrant grandparents. Yes, there is racism. Or at least there was--perhaps it's disappeared?  When my uncle married a dark-skinned Dominican, my blonde haired blue eyed grandmother treated her and the baby horribly. When the next baby had blonde hair, she was treated like gold. Then there was my grandfather who wouldn't stop for dark skinned children as he drove... Again, this was my experience until the 1980s....  If you want to go back to the Trujillo years, read about how he powdered his skin white to remove any hint of his Haitian ancestry.

Are Jews White?

P.S.: I know, I know, AlterEgo, race discussions are verboten, but in this specific case, I think the point is very apropos, since the point is really not clear with her ethnic kinsmen these days.
 
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Derfish

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Are Jews White?

P.S.: I know, I know, AlterEgo, race discussions are verboten, but in this specific case, I think the point is very apropos, since the point is really not clear with her ethnic kinsmen these days.

most European Jews have no actual Jewish blood because it has been deluted so much over the years.
 

NALs

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Speaking of Trujillo, this was his mother:

image.jpg


Her birthday was a national holiday that included various events where she was the center of attention, even getting pictures taken and published in all the newspapers.

It was through her that the connection to the very lightskinned Port-au-Prince elite was inherited from, the Chevalier family. I personally never understood why when people hear of Trujillo's connection to Haiti's upper class, people imagine a black or dark skin Haitian. If only they knew. lol

A lot of things are now said about Trujillo, so much that for many people it's hard to separate fact from fiction. On the other hand, the 'official' everything about Trujillo is what has been said by his adversaries, those that belong to families that priviliged (and many still are) but along the way fell out of grace with Trujillo, either getting a family member tortured or killed. That's the root of their anti-Trujillismo, more than anything else. What they say is what's held as the absolute truth on Trujillo. As anyone can imagine, everything that could be said about him has been said, and by everything I mean everything. With that said, the contradictions are on full display for anyone willing to notice them.

Trujillo also put his brother nicknamed Negro in important and very visible positions (I think he was even made President of the Republic for a time.) He even appears in photographs along with his brother, photographs that were very public. He was nicknamed Negro because he was the darkest of them all.
 
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Naked_Snake

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most European Jews have no actual Jewish blood because it has been deluted so much over the years.

That's not what the results from the people tested at 23andMe database would tell you (the majority end up having a high Middle Eastern score).

And to bring this back into topic, very few of the Haitians tested have come up with Dominican matches. So much about being an island, being the same and all the usual bromides.
 

Naked_Snake

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It was through her that the connection to the very lightskinned Port-au-Prince elite was inherited from, the Chevalier family. I personally never understood why when people hear of Trujillo's connection to Haiti's upper class, people imagine a black or dark skin Haitian. If only they knew. lol

Incurable morons that they are. They think that the one drop rule applies everywhere, when in fact there is, has been, and perhaps will always be a caste division over there, between the descendants of the old mulatto/affranchi class of the colonial times and the mass of the descendants of the ex-slaves.
 

NALs

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Incurable morons that they are. They think that the one drop rule applies everywhere, when in fact there is, has been, and perhaps will always be a caste division over there, between the descendants of the old mulatto/affranchi class of the colonial times and the mass of the descendants of the ex-slaves.
I don't even think it has much to do with 'one-drop-ruling' him, but its simply one more twist that is added whenever the Haitian migration issue pops up.

The DR must be the only country in the world that for centuries even the foreigners said that the Dominican population is among the least racist societies anywhere. Back then the white population was significant, which makes these claims even more interesting. At least documents from as far back as the 1700's written by foreigners that either visited or lived in the Spanish territory, and then Dominican territory after independence, have all made the same claim regarding race and color relations. McKenzie, a foreign diplomat stationed in Port-au-Prince in the 1820s (the time when the Dominican population was subjected to the 22 years Haitian Domination) toured all of Haiti (which back then was the entire island) and in his written account of this massive in person tour titled 'Notes on Haiti', he clearly mentions; first, the very cordial race relations he witnessed among what he called the Spanish Haitians (aka, Dominicans) or people of the east despite the white population being evidently numerous and in many places an absolute majority while the bulk of the rest of the population being a mixed race with a predominance of very light skin; secondly, he made a comparison with the racial issues he witnessed back in Port-au-Prince between the mulattoes and the blacks; and, lastly, he also commented the widespread distaste in which all Dominicans regardless of color or social class regarded the Haitians, which at that time consisted of a few upper class mulatto families from Port-au-Prince that settled in various parts of the DR, the mulatto and black military generals, and the tends of thousands of black Haitian soldiers that were stationed in all the major towns.

When McKenzie was describing his treck from La Vega to Santo Cerro (or maybe it was from Santo Cerro to Cevico, can't remember but I do have the book at home, so maybe I will cite it later today and post it here), his guide was a black Dominican and McKenzie asked him once why did the Dominican people held the Haitians with such disdain. The first time the guide remained silent, but the second time the only thing the guide said was 'son muy bravos' which translates to 'they are too brutal.' People should keep in mind that in the 1820's many people that witnessed the bloody Haitian invasion of 1805 (with the widespread torture and massacres the Dominican civilian population was subjected to by the invading Haitian army) and the invasion of 1801, and of course the invasion of 1822; was still fresh in their minds, many of these people losing family members, friends, and acquaintances in that brutal assault. The Haitian army tended to mistreat the population where ever they were, this was true on the Dominican side as it was on the Haitian side of the island; but, while in Haiti the Haitian army's actions were seen as the ways of the army, among the Dominicans it was seen as the ways of the Haitians because the army was the bulk of the Haitian presence on the eastern part of the island.

Like I said before, the DR must be the only country in the world that for centuries even the foreigners said race and color relations are as amicable as they can be, and now there's a small group of people that want to make the DR seem as if its some sort of South Africa or the USA under segregation. Almost every country that has the image of being historically racist has a long documented history regarding this, except for the DR.

We all know that the pressure for the DR to deal with the Haitian mess is what's behind all of this. They are looking for a way to twist the Dominican arm and force the Dominicans into something most Dominicans don't want.


With all of this said, saying that the DR and Dominicans in general aren't racist doesn't mean there are no racist people out there. Moreau de Saint Mery, a French from Martinique that lived in Cap Francais (today Cap Haitian) even said back in the 1790's, and I paraphrase from memory:

The prejudice of color, so prevalent in the colonies of other European countries and that fixes a bar between the whites and the free people of color, is almost unknown in the Spanish part of the island of Santo Domingo.

The 'almost' implies that while the vast majority of Dominicans weren't racist, there was a handful that were. So even back then in a population that he described as 'the free people of color are few compared to the size of the white population, but very numerous compared to the size of the slave population' there were a few people with racist ideas. None the less, a few doesn't mean most or even all.

Ironically, of the two countries on the island its Haiti that has a very long documented history of intrenched racism, not only the mulatto vs black issues after independence but even back in colonial times with the French basically creating a racially segregated society. In 1861, John Parkhill even said in his book "Soulouque and His Empire" that while in Haiti the French placed legislation that prohibited mixed marriages, made it difficult for slaves to be emancipated, and 'openly established the prejudice of color as a means of policing,' he goes on to contrast by mentioning that at the same time the Spaniards 'all was organized to facilitate the fusion of the two races.' Then he went on, and I'm paraphrasing from memory, to say 'Spanish customs, with their tendencies to practical equality... also favored intermixture; and local circumstances facilitated this inlfuence in manners.'

Despite the very long and well documented history of intrenched racism in Haiti, first under French rule and then under their own rule; today its the DR that is crucified under an assumption of a long history of racism that simply doesn't passes the test when all the historical documents are put on the table. Somehow no one cares of Haiti's past, but everyone is now interested in a assumption of the Dominican past that doesn't lives up to the evidence.

Again, we all know that what is behind all of this is the desire among some to have the DR and Dominican carry Haiti on our shoulders, as if Dominicans are responsible for the mess that englobes the western third of the island. If Haiti was a normal functioning country, even within the Developing World standards, I'm sure this insistence on presenting the DR as a racist country would had never been created. Haiti is a huge problem and no one wants to fix it, not even the Haitians themselves.
 

Fulano2

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Like I said before, the DR must be the only country in the world that for centuries even the foreigners said race and color relations are as amicable as they can be,....
That is what they say about Amsterdam. So they say about Surinam. Again the DR isn't a Unique country.
 

NALs

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That is what they say about Amsterdam. So they say about Surinam. Again the DR isn't a Unique country.
Are people trying to say that those places are very racist and that they have always been like that?

Amsterdam is a city, btw.

You need to quote within context.
 

Fulano2

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I don't know what are trying to say but you wrote :
Like I said before, the DR must be the only country in the world that for centuries even the foreigners said race and color relations are as amicable as they can be,
. I tell you that is in more countries, Surinam, and, yes a city, I was born there, Amsterdam. So it is not "the only country", there are more. Again, the DR is nice country but in nothing unique, don't overrate it.
 

Fulano2

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I don't know what you are trying to say but you wrote :
Like I said before, the DR must be the only country in the world that for centuries even the foreigners said race and color relations are as amicable as they can be,
. I tell you that is in more countries, Surinam, and, yes a city, I was born there, Amsterdam. So it is not "the only country", there are more. Again, the DR is nice country but in nothing unique, don't overrate it.
Going back in the 17th, people were amazed hoe gold the great amount of jews got along with the Dutch population in Amsterdam, that was mainly the netherlands, the rest was hinterland.
Now in the netherlands you see blacks married to whites, arabs to indonesians and they fit in better than here. I don't see a multimilionaire white DR family's Son coming home with a "prietica". No way.
 

Naked_Snake

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I don't know what are trying to say but you wrote :. I tell you that is in more countries, Surinam, and, yes a city, I was born there, Amsterdam. So it is not "the only country", there are more. Again, the DR is nice country but in nothing unique, don't overrate it.

Sorry, but I find that hard to believe, specially since in the centuries he's speaking about (XVIIth-XIXth), the DR/Santo Domingo was remarked to be extremely lax on its racial views (and even criticized for it by certain colonial ministers in Seville) while in Surinam, as with your typical Caribbean plantation colony, such harmony shone for its absence. The John Stedmans that dared to jump the color line there were a handful, and very much frowned and criticized upon. In fact, Stedman had to take his mulatto children to Europe for them to attain liberty, let alone a better life.
 

Naked_Snake

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I don't know what you are trying to say but you wrote :. I tell you that is in more countries, Surinam, and, yes a city, I was born there, Amsterdam. So it is not "the only country", there are more. Again, the DR is nice country but in nothing unique, don't overrate it.
Going back in the 17th, people were amazed hoe gold the great amount of jews got along with the Dutch population in Amsterdam, that was mainly the netherlands, the rest was hinterland.
Now in the netherlands you see blacks married to whites, arabs to indonesians and they fit in better than here. I don't see a multimilionaire white DR family's Son coming home with a "prietica". No way.

Jews may have been a racial other in Europe, but in Surinam and the rest of the British and Dutch Caribbean they were part of the planter/master class (except in the French colonies, where they were subjected to the same discriminations that Protestants have to live with. Although this was more enforced in Martinique and Guadeloupe, cuz in Saint-Domingue/Haiti the authorities studiously avoided touching them due to their commercial expertise).
 

Naked_Snake

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When I mentioned the 17th century I was speaking about Amsterdam. Surinam was later. This century.

Be it as it may, for a region in which African labor and white supremacy were the tie that bounded all, NAL's point still stands (as in, being a rare oasis in an everlasting regional racial societal volcano), although this was caused more by Spain's inability to enforce the plantation economy on this island than a carefully thought out design than anything.