Dominican Republic - Haiti border pass and market at Jimani crossing

[bob saunders]

Wow! I'm speechless.

I've never understood why Dominicans demonize Haitians so much? This ethnocentrism is foolish if you consider that both sides are descendants from African slaves. Perhaps different parts of Africa, but still, sold into slavery nonetheless...

So much for shared suffering resulting in brotherly love...

Your statement indicates that you are out of touch with Dominican history.

 

[bob saunders]

Dear Sir - Have you been to my country? I'm not so patriotic to think America doesn't have it's share of problems, but the photo that you've posted is not 'typical' of America. It's the bottom 0.5%. Yet the photo posted of Jimani is the 50-70%. Some perspective is in order surely.

Personally I don't have a problem with the DR government taking 'creative' risks in building new essential government buildings. Great architecture inspires great thinking. There are many architecture and engineering graduates in the DR, and the more work for them to be creative and innovative, the better. They should really have contests and let students participate in designs, and let young people 'create their brand'.

But again, some perspective is needed. This level of investment could probably renovate 50 or 60 schools in the area, and THEY could be architecturally creative too...

Pichardo lives in your country, at present. Yes the money could be better spent on numerous other things to improve the life of the common folks in that area.
Here is an article on poverty in the USA.I had a conversation with a doctor who had practised in the Ozarks and was doing missionary work in Jarabacoa. He said those in the Ozarks were poorer and more malnourished than poor Dominicans.
Poverty in the USA (20 pics) - Izismile.com

 

[Chip]

So much for shared suffering resulting in brotherly love...

...due to the evil white man right?

You should know that Haitian occupied the Dominican Republic for many years and committed atrocities such as massacres. Not only that they tried to suppress the Spanish culture and remove the influence of the Catholic Church. Haiti has a long history of racism starting with when they gained their independence. Certainly the DR has been guilty of crimes against the Haitians, but this after the occupation. I understand most find the history of the DR to be an inconvenient truth and many in fact try to diminish it's importance or relevance. I recommend you read more on this topic.

 

[NALs]

Wow! I'm speechless.

I've never understood why Dominicans demonize Haitians so much? This ethnocentrism is foolish if you consider that both sides are descendants from African slaves. Perhaps different parts of Africa, but still, sold into slavery nonetheless...

So much for shared suffering resulting in brotherly love...

If you don't understand, then use the search feature and soon enough you will.

But first, I will give you a condensed summary (and for the record, there's no such thing as 'shared suffering' when it comes to Dominican-Haitian relations. For the most part, the one's that suffered were the Dominicans at the hand of the Haitians, and that makes a big difference):

1. Haiti gains independence from France in 1804.

2. Dessalines attempts to annex the central and eastern portions. His troops captured every major town except for the capital (at that time the capital was the Colonial Zone, nothing else). He was ready to charge for the capital until he saw a few French boats offshore, thinking they were headed to his unguarded Port-au-Prince and bring an end to Haitian independence. He decides to retreat and orders the Haitian military to march back to Haiti. He also ordered the troops to burn and loot every town they passed through and to kill every non-Haitian man, woman and child met along the way. There are written reports about this available and some go into great detail ranging from how entire families were butchered to how the Haitian troops took many newborn babies and threw them in the air and then shot them with their bayonets while the babies were airborne, all in front of their parents. Why did he ordered that? Who knows!

3. Henry Christophe declares himself king of Northern Haiti, making Sans Souci his headquarters. He got the 'brilliant' idea of attempting to conquer the central and eastern part of the island. While his attempt failed, he did managed to impose a massacre that span the entire Cibao Valley. One noted case was what happened in Moca, where the local residents had fled to the surrounding woods, in fear for their lives. The Haitian troops gave signs that they were not going to harm anyone. Once the message had reached a good number of the local people that had fled, many decided to return to Moca. As an act of celebration for the 'change of heart' from the Haitians, a mass was arranged at the local church. Soon after the mass started, the Haitian troops surrounded the church and with machete on hand, busted into it and massacred every single man, woman and child, including the priest and other clergymen. Some of the other things done was the mass kidnapping of children, forced to march to Haiti for God-knows-what.

4. In 1821 Jos? N??ez de C?ceres heads a bloodless and battle-less coup against the Spanish monarchy, putting an end to the Spanish colony of Santo Domingo and initiating Dominican self-rule for the first time. That was in December. By February of the following year (two months later), Jean Pierre Boyer's troops had already marched across the border with the intent of conquering the Dominican side. The Dominicans gave up power without a fight, in part because there was no military to defend the new country against the Haitian troops, which were carrying the most powerful arms of a non-colonial power in the Caribbean -Napoleons weapons-. This initiated an occupation that lasted 22 years.

5. During those 22 years, the Dominican population was subject to much hardship. First, relations with the Vatican were broken and the Church's properties were seized. Second, many Dominicans were deprived of their own properties by the Haitian authorities, only to see those very same properties being given to high ranking Haitian military generals. That was the main driving force behind the occupation, since Boyer had a tremendous problem in his hands when his military generals demanded some sort of payment for their loyalty to him. Short on cash and not a single square meter of Haiti available, the only viable option for him was to invade the extremely underpopulated new republic to the east in order to give his military generals the loot. In the process, much of the Dominican population fled the island, some on their own will but most practically by force. The Spanish language was practically outlawed, the university was closed, an economic decay ensued, etc. In the end, the Dominicans waited for a political turmoil to erupt in Port-au-Prince, which it did, to impose their coup. On the 27th of February of 1844, the Dominican Republic is declared independent and the Haitians had no choice but to accept it. They, however, didn't gave up without a fight, but in the end, they lost.

6. After Dominican independence, in the following years there were several bloody invasion attempts by the Haitians. This caused much instability on the Dominican side and has even been blamed for why Dominicans have traditionally ignored the border region -it was the first places to be burned and the only region to had suffered each invasion attempt- all the way to why the average Dominican tends to be apathetic towards many things -why bother when in a few years a new upheaval caused by Haitian imperialistic ambition will undo much of the progress-.

As a result of the constant Haitian invasions, the Dominicans put an end to it by becoming once again a colony of Spain in 1861. This scared the political class in Port-au-Prince, since they didn't want an economic and military presence on the island that was stronger than them. As such, Haiti did support the new political upheaval that erupted under the leader ship of General Gregorio Luper?n, in order to put an end to Spanish rule on the island. Apparently, the Haitians figured that its better to have a weak independent country that they can interfere at whim as a neighbor than a strong military might.

In 1865, the Dominican Republic was restored and Haitians never again attempted to militarily invade the Dominican side, but they did interfered in Dominican internal affairs through other softer means, causing much resentment from the Dominicans. This habit was put to an end for the first time under the Trujillo dictatorship. The Trujillo regime changed Dominican-Haitian relations not just due to his military might, but also due to the economic development. For the first time ever, the Spanish-speaking side of the island became economically stronger and more developed than the French/Kreyol-speaking side. From that point forward, Haitian interference in Dominican affairs has been quite negligible.

As for the whole slavery part, it really is irrelevant. When N??ez de C?ceres declared independence in 1821, most of the population was non-white and free. The minority that was enslaved, was mostly employed in attending cattle ranches and doing house chores in very few homes in the towns. The first activity gave the slave so much freedom, that many lived a life as if they were freedmen, despite by law being slaves. The second activity put many of them in contact with civil life, often times developing a bond with their master family akin to being part of the family, the nanny developing a motherly-like bond with the kids, etc. Needless to say, slavery on the Dominican part was not widespread or intensive, and that conditioned greatly the treatment between the free majority and the enslaved minority.

In Haiti the situation was much more similar to what happened in the United States. Plantation economy dominated everything with sugar being the number one crop, followed by cotton plantations, coffee, indigo, etc. The French were extremely efficient in getting the greatest output from their slave labor to the extent that every African slave that managed to arrive alive and in health at Cap Francais (today Cap Haitien), had a life expectancy of roughly 6 years. Let me put this another way, the average slave on average lived for 6 years after having disembarked on Haiti and being sold to their masters. Why? A combination of a hostile climate, brutal sun, bad diet, but most importantly, intensive micromanaging. They were worked from sun up to sun down in conditions not even animals had to endure.

The result?

When the Dominicans declared independence in 1821, most of the population was free while the enslaved population had a relatively easy life compared to the Africans in Haiti. Also, almost all the African blood in the Spanish side had already been born for many generations on the island, with centuries of being subjected to a mostly Hispanic culture and way of life, in essence they were Hispanic in almost every sense.

When the Haitians declared independence in 1804, most of the population was enslaved and was born in Africa. Even some of Haiti's independence leaders, like Dessalines, was born in Africa. This meant having almost an intact connection to their African culture and identity, with very few racial mixing having occurred. Unlike the Dominican side, where most of the population was of mixed descent, in Haiti the pure black African was in great numbers everywhere.

The Dominicans were never hostile towards the whites, while Haiti was born with very strong resentment towards all things white and European. It was so bad in Haiti that it took an amendment to their constitution, imposed by the United States during their military occupation at the beginning of the 20th century, for white people to be allowed to even own private property there. Why? Different types of slavery and treatment creates different results.

Today the DR is being invaded by large numbers of extremely poor Haitians, causing many sectors of Dominican society to worry. The reasons range the gamut from possible adverse economic effects this may have to any potential reclamation that a stronger Haiti in the future might make, which could be successful if a significant proportion of the Dominican population is haitianized. Others simply don't want the country to lose its identity, so on and so forth.

To conclude, the problem has always been of Haitian expansionism at the expense of the Dominicans and Dominicans attempting to contain Haiti's ambitions. Apparently, Haiti is always in expansion mode. When its not an intentional expansion plan on their part (so far, this has only happened while Haiti was the stronger of the two countries), then its an indirect expansion due to its people fleeing (occurring while Haiti is the weaker of the two).

What will happen if Haiti ever strengthens again and now having millions of its people living on the eastern part?

Good question...

 

[Mr_DR]

If you don't understand, then use the search feature and soon enough you will.

But first, I will give you a condensed summary (and for the record, there's no such thing as 'shared suffering' when it comes to Dominican-Haitian relations. For the most part, the one's that suffered were the Dominicans at the hand of the Haitians, and that makes a big difference):

1. Haiti gains independence from France in 1804.

2. Dessalines attempts to annex the central and eastern portions. His troops captured every major town except for the capital (at that time the capital was the Colonial Zone, nothing else). He was ready to charge for the capital until he saw a few French boats offshore, thinking they were headed to his unguarded Port-au-Prince and bring an end to Haitian independence. He decides to retreat and orders the Haitian military to march back to Haiti. He also ordered the troops to burn and loot every town they passed through and to kill every non-Haitian man, woman and child met along the way. There are written reports about this available and some go into great detail ranging from how entire families were butchered to how the Haitian troops took many newborn babies and threw them in the air and then shot them with their bayonets while the babies were airborne, all in front of their parents. Why did he ordered that? Who knows!

3. Henry Christophe declares himself king of Northern Haiti, making Sans Souci his headquarters. He got the 'brilliant' idea of attempting to conquer the central and eastern part of the island. While his attempt failed, he did managed to impose a massacre that span the entire Cibao Valley. One noted case was what happened in Moca, where the local residents had fled to the surrounding woods, in fear for their lives. The Haitian troops gave signs that they were not going to harm anyone. Once the message had reached a good number of the local people that had fled, many decided to return to Moca. As an act of celebration for the 'change of heart' from the Haitians, a mass was arranged at the local church. Soon after the mass started, the Haitian troops surrounded the church and with machete on hand, busted into it and massacred every single man, woman and child, including the priest and other clergymen. Some of the other things done was the mass kidnapping of children, forced to march to Haiti for God-knows-what.

4. In 1821 Jos? N??ez de C?ceres heads a bloodless and battle-less coup against the Spanish monarchy, putting an end to the Spanish colony of Santo Domingo and initiating Dominican self-rule for the first time. That was in December. By February of the following year (two months later), Jean Pierre Boyer's troops had already marched across the border with the intent of conquering the Dominican side. The Dominicans gave up power without a fight, in part because there was no military to defend the new country against the Haitian troops, which were carrying the most powerful arms of a non-colonial power in the Caribbean -Napoleons weapons-. This initiated an occupation that lasted 22 years.

5. During those 22 years, the Dominican population was subject to much hardship. First, relations with the Vatican were broken and the Church's properties were seized. Second, many Dominicans were deprived of their own properties by the Haitian authorities, only to see those very same properties being given to high ranking Haitian military generals. That was the main driving force behind the occupation, since Boyer had a tremendous problem in his hands when his military generals demanded some sort of payment for their loyalty to him. Short on cash and not a single square meter of Haiti available, the only viable option for him was to invade the extremely underpopulated new republic to the east in order to give his military generals the loot. In the process, much of the Dominican population fled the island, some on their own will but most practically by force. The Spanish language was practically outlawed, the university was closed, an economic decay ensued, etc. In the end, the Dominicans waited for a political turmoil to erupt in Port-au-Prince, which it did, to impose their coup. On the 27th of February of 1844, the Dominican Republic is declared independent and the Haitians had no choice but to accept it. They, however, didn't gave up without a fight, but in the end, they lost.

6. After Dominican independence, in the following years there were several bloody invasion attempts by the Haitians. This caused much instability on the Dominican side and has even been blamed for why Dominicans have traditionally ignored the border region -it was the first places to be burned and the only region to had suffered each invasion attempt- all the way to why the average Dominican tends to be apathetic towards many things -why bother when in a few years a new upheaval caused by Haitian imperialistic ambition will undo much of the progress-.

As a result of the constant Haitian invasions, the Dominicans put an end to it by becoming once again a colony of Spain in 1861. This scared the political class in Port-au-Prince, since they didn't want an economic and military presence on the island that was stronger than them. As such, Haiti did support the new political upheaval that erupted under the leader ship of General Gregorio Luper?n, in order to put an end to Spanish rule on the island. Apparently, the Haitians figured that its better to have a weak independent country that they can interfere at whim as a neighbor than a strong military might.

In 1865, the Dominican Republic was restored and Haitians never again attempted to militarily invade the Dominican side, but they did interfered in Dominican internal affairs through other softer means, causing much resentment from the Dominicans. This habit was put to an end for the first time under the Trujillo dictatorship. The Trujillo regime changed Dominican-Haitian relations not just due to his military might, but also due to the economic development. For the first time ever, the Spanish-speaking side of the island became economically stronger and more developed than the French/Kreyol-speaking side. From that point forward, Haitian interference in Dominican affairs has been quite negligible.

As for the whole slavery part, it really is irrelevant. When N??ez de C?ceres declared independence in 1821, most of the population was non-white and free. The minority that was enslaved, was mostly employed in attending cattle ranches and doing house chores in very few homes in the towns. The first activity gave the slave so much freedom, that many lived a life as if they were freedmen, despite by law being slaves. The second activity put many of them in contact with civil life, often times developing a bond with their master family akin to being part of the family, the nanny developing a motherly-like bond with the kids, etc. Needless to say, slavery on the Dominican part was not widespread or intensive, and that conditioned greatly the treatment between the free majority and the enslaved minority.

In Haiti the situation was much more similar to what happened in the United States. Plantation economy dominated everything with sugar being the number one crop, followed by cotton plantations, coffee, indigo, etc. The French were extremely efficient in getting the greatest output from their slave labor to the extent that every African slave that managed to arrive alive and in health at Cap Francais (today Cap Haitien), had a life expectancy of roughly 6 years. Let me put this another way, the average slave on average lived for 6 years after having disembarked on Haiti and being sold to their masters. Why? A combination of a hostile climate, brutal sun, bad diet, but most importantly, intensive micromanaging. They were worked from sun up to sun down in conditions not even animals had to endure.

The result?

When the Dominicans declared independence in 1821, most of the population was free while the enslaved population had a relatively easy life compared to the Africans in Haiti. Also, almost all the African blood in the Spanish side had already been born for many generations on the island, with centuries of being subjected to a mostly Hispanic culture and way of life, in essence they were Hispanic in almost every sense.

When the Haitians declared independence in 1804, most of the population was enslaved and was born in Africa. Even some of Haiti's independence leaders, like Dessalines, was born in Africa. This meant having almost an intact connection to their African culture and identity, with very few racial mixing having occurred. Unlike the Dominican side, where most of the population was of mixed descent, in Haiti the pure black African was in great numbers everywhere.

The Dominicans were never hostile towards the whites, while Haiti was born with very strong resentment towards all things white and European. It was so bad in Haiti that it took an amendment to their constitution, imposed by the United States during their military occupation at the beginning of the 20th century, for white people to be allowed to even own private property there. Why? Different types of slavery and treatment creates different results.

Today the DR is being invaded by large numbers of extremely poor Haitians, causing many sectors of Dominican society to worry. The reasons range the gamut from possible adverse economic effects this may have to any potential reclamation that a stronger Haiti in the future might make, which could be successful if a significant proportion of the Dominican population is haitianized. Others simply don't want the country to lose its identity, so on and so forth.

To conclude, the problem has always been of Haitian expansionism at the expense of the Dominicans and Dominicans attempting to contain Haiti's ambitions. Apparently, Haiti is always in expansion mode. When its not an intentional expansion plan on their part (so far, this has only happened while Haiti was the stronger of the two countries), then its an indirect expansion due to its people fleeing (occurring while Haiti is the weaker of the two).

What will happen if Haiti ever strengthens again and now having millions of its people living on the eastern part?

Good question...

They might've gotten away with murder from us, but to god, no crime goes unpunished.

Back to the architecture, I love it!

Keep it up Pichardo, don't pay the "Negative Squad" any mind.

 

[pedrochemical]

If you have the mind of an 8 year old then you now know about Hispaniolan history.

Very balanced, NALS.

Bwahahahahahahah!

 

[Taino808]

If you have the mind of an 8 year old then you now know about Hispaniolan history.

Very balanced, NALS.

Bwahahahahahahah!

Here we go.....again, now let's hear the Haitian side of it. I'd love to read how the Haitian sugar-coat the Island's history.

 

[Randall Bell]

Pichardo lives in your country, at present. Yes the money could be better spent on numerous other things to improve the life of the common folks in that area.
Here is an article on poverty in the USA.I had a conversation with a doctor who had practised in the Ozarks and was doing missionary work in Jarabacoa. He said those in the Ozarks were poorer and more malnourished than poor Dominicans.
Poverty in the USA (20 pics) - Izismile.com

Thanks for the feedback. Sure enough, there are places in America where people are poor and malnourished. Weather it's the Ozarks as you state, or under the bridge somewhere in a big city, but surely we can agree that it's the exception and not the rule. That's the 0.5% not the 99%. If that poster lives in America, then he would know that America doesn't look like the photo he posted. America looks mostly like this - highways and highways + strip malls and strip malls.

Whereas a good 40-60% of Dominicans - depending of where you go in the country, live 4-5 in a room, in sustenance living. Not that there's anything wrong with the way they live, but some perspective is required surely.

 

[Randall Bell]

...due to the evil white man right?

Well you said it brother! lol. But let's try not to whitewash the impact of 500 years of slavery and let's not forget who was responsible...

You should know that Haitian occupied the Dominican Republic for many years and committed atrocities such as massacres. Not only that they tried to suppress the Spanish culture and remove the influence of the Catholic Church.

Why would Dominicans - slaves from Africa owned by the Spanish - care if the 'Spanish language' was eliminated? it was not their language. Why would they care if the 'catholic church' was suppressed? It was not their religion to begin with? Their own native African languages and animist religions were erased during 500 years of oppression. It's the same on both sides of the island.

I'm sure you know the old expression - Una Faccia Una Razza.

 

[Randall Bell]

If you don't understand, then use the search feature and soon enough you will.

But first, I will give you a condensed summary (and for the record, there's no such thing as 'shared suffering' when it comes to Dominican-Haitian relations. For the most part, the one's that suffered were the Dominicans at the hand of the Haitians, and that makes a big difference):

1. Haiti gains independence from France in 1804.

2. Dessalines attempts to annex the central and eastern portions. His troops captured every major town except for the capital (at that time the capital was the Colonial Zone, nothing else). He was ready to charge for the capital until he saw a few French boats offshore, thinking they were headed to his unguarded Port-au-Prince and bring an end to Haitian independence. He decides to retreat and orders the Haitian military to march back to Haiti. He also ordered the troops to burn and loot every town they passed through and to kill every non-Haitian man, woman and child met along the way. There are written reports about this available and some go into great detail ranging from how entire families were butchered to how the Haitian troops took many newborn babies and threw them in the air and then shot them with their bayonets while the babies were airborne, all in front of their parents. Why did he ordered that? Who knows!

3. Henry Christophe declares himself king of Northern Haiti, making Sans Souci his headquarters. He got the 'brilliant' idea of attempting to conquer the central and eastern part of the island. While his attempt failed, he did managed to impose a massacre that span the entire Cibao Valley. One noted case was what happened in Moca, where the local residents had fled to the surrounding woods, in fear for their lives. The Haitian troops gave signs that they were not going to harm anyone. Once the message had reached a good number of the local people that had fled, many decided to return to Moca. As an act of celebration for the 'change of heart' from the Haitians, a mass was arranged at the local church. Soon after the mass started, the Haitian troops surrounded the church and with machete on hand, busted into it and massacred every single man, woman and child, including the priest and other clergymen. Some of the other things done was the mass kidnapping of children, forced to march to Haiti for God-knows-what.

4. In 1821 Jos? N??ez de C?ceres heads a bloodless and battle-less coup against the Spanish monarchy, putting an end to the Spanish colony of Santo Domingo and initiating Dominican self-rule for the first time. That was in December. By February of the following year (two months later), Jean Pierre Boyer's troops had already marched across the border with the intent of conquering the Dominican side. The Dominicans gave up power without a fight, in part because there was no military to defend the new country against the Haitian troops, which were carrying the most powerful arms of a non-colonial power in the Caribbean -Napoleons weapons-. This initiated an occupation that lasted 22 years.

5. During those 22 years, the Dominican population was subject to much hardship. First, relations with the Vatican were broken and the Church's properties were seized. Second, many Dominicans were deprived of their own properties by the Haitian authorities, only to see those very same properties being given to high ranking Haitian military generals. That was the main driving force behind the occupation, since Boyer had a tremendous problem in his hands when his military generals demanded some sort of payment for their loyalty to him. Short on cash and not a single square meter of Haiti available, the only viable option for him was to invade the extremely underpopulated new republic to the east in order to give his military generals the loot. In the process, much of the Dominican population fled the island, some on their own will but most practically by force. The Spanish language was practically outlawed, the university was closed, an economic decay ensued, etc. In the end, the Dominicans waited for a political turmoil to erupt in Port-au-Prince, which it did, to impose their coup. On the 27th of February of 1844, the Dominican Republic is declared independent and the Haitians had no choice but to accept it. They, however, didn't gave up without a fight, but in the end, they lost.

6. After Dominican independence, in the following years there were several bloody invasion attempts by the Haitians. This caused much instability on the Dominican side and has even been blamed for why Dominicans have traditionally ignored the border region -it was the first places to be burned and the only region to had suffered each invasion attempt- all the way to why the average Dominican tends to be apathetic towards many things -why bother when in a few years a new upheaval caused by Haitian imperialistic ambition will undo much of the progress-.

As a result of the constant Haitian invasions, the Dominicans put an end to it by becoming once again a colony of Spain in 1861. This scared the political class in Port-au-Prince, since they didn't want an economic and military presence on the island that was stronger than them. As such, Haiti did support the new political upheaval that erupted under the leader ship of General Gregorio Luper?n, in order to put an end to Spanish rule on the island. Apparently, the Haitians figured that its better to have a weak independent country that they can interfere at whim as a neighbor than a strong military might.

In 1865, the Dominican Republic was restored and Haitians never again attempted to militarily invade the Dominican side, but they did interfered in Dominican internal affairs through other softer means, causing much resentment from the Dominicans. This habit was put to an end for the first time under the Trujillo dictatorship. The Trujillo regime changed Dominican-Haitian relations not just due to his military might, but also due to the economic development. For the first time ever, the Spanish-speaking side of the island became economically stronger and more developed than the French/Kreyol-speaking side. From that point forward, Haitian interference in Dominican affairs has been quite negligible.

As for the whole slavery part, it really is irrelevant. When N??ez de C?ceres declared independence in 1821, most of the population was non-white and free. The minority that was enslaved, was mostly employed in attending cattle ranches and doing house chores in very few homes in the towns. The first activity gave the slave so much freedom, that many lived a life as if they were freedmen, despite by law being slaves. The second activity put many of them in contact with civil life, often times developing a bond with their master family akin to being part of the family, the nanny developing a motherly-like bond with the kids, etc. Needless to say, slavery on the Dominican part was not widespread or intensive, and that conditioned greatly the treatment between the free majority and the enslaved minority.

In Haiti the situation was much more similar to what happened in the United States. Plantation economy dominated everything with sugar being the number one crop, followed by cotton plantations, coffee, indigo, etc. The French were extremely efficient in getting the greatest output from their slave labor to the extent that every African slave that managed to arrive alive and in health at Cap Francais (today Cap Haitien), had a life expectancy of roughly 6 years. Let me put this another way, the average slave on average lived for 6 years after having disembarked on Haiti and being sold to their masters. Why? A combination of a hostile climate, brutal sun, bad diet, but most importantly, intensive micromanaging. They were worked from sun up to sun down in conditions not even animals had to endure.

The result?

When the Dominicans declared independence in 1821, most of the population was free while the enslaved population had a relatively easy life compared to the Africans in Haiti. Also, almost all the African blood in the Spanish side had already been born for many generations on the island, with centuries of being subjected to a mostly Hispanic culture and way of life, in essence they were Hispanic in almost every sense.

When the Haitians declared independence in 1804, most of the population was enslaved and was born in Africa. Even some of Haiti's independence leaders, like Dessalines, was born in Africa. This meant having almost an intact connection to their African culture and identity, with very few racial mixing having occurred. Unlike the Dominican side, where most of the population was of mixed descent, in Haiti the pure black African was in great numbers everywhere.

The Dominicans were never hostile towards the whites, while Haiti was born with very strong resentment towards all things white and European. It was so bad in Haiti that it took an amendment to their constitution, imposed by the United States during their military occupation at the beginning of the 20th century, for white people to be allowed to even own private property there. Why? Different types of slavery and treatment creates different results.

Today the DR is being invaded by large numbers of extremely poor Haitians, causing many sectors of Dominican society to worry. The reasons range the gamut from possible adverse economic effects this may have to any potential reclamation that a stronger Haiti in the future might make, which could be successful if a significant proportion of the Dominican population is haitianized. Others simply don't want the country to lose its identity, so on and so forth.

To conclude, the problem has always been of Haitian expansionism at the expense of the Dominicans and Dominicans attempting to contain Haiti's ambitions. Apparently, Haiti is always in expansion mode. When its not an intentional expansion plan on their part (so far, this has only happened while Haiti was the stronger of the two countries), then its an indirect expansion due to its people fleeing (occurring while Haiti is the weaker of the two).

What will happen if Haiti ever strengthens again and now having millions of its people living on the eastern part?

Good question...

Thank you for this feedback and detailed response. I wasn't aware of all the history. Not sure I agree that today DR is being 'invaded' by large number of Haitians though. Nor do I think it's a bad thing... Nor can I agree that 'Dominican' actually has a meaning? It's a relatively recent construct - no more than 200 years old. It feels like 'self hate' to say one is Dominican and not recognize that there are suppressed and enslaved African roots underneath, the same roots as the 'Haitians'.

Moreover, slavery isn't yet finished in the DR. If you look carefully, it's still there. The DR is a feudal state, with the very wealthy elite (top 10%) enslaving the masses with a non-living wage. With foreign companies and tourists coming to exploit the cheap labor and resources. One of the reasons that we find DR so exciting is because of the 'failed state' nature of the laws - we can come and do things that we can't do at home. Sleep with women for cheap. Bribe police officers when we speed. Drink on the street for cheap. etc. Spend and design our own little libertarian paradise. That too is a continued form of slavery.

But back to the architecture... lol. I wish they would have had a contest and had a student win the design of this building.

That way the money and 'fame' can get spread around...

 

[Taino808]

Thanks for the feedback. Sure enough, there are places in America where people are poor and malnourished. Weather it's the Ozarks as you state, or under the bridge somewhere in a big city, but surely we can agree that it's the exception and not the rule. That's the 0.5% not the 99%. If that poster lives in America, then he would know that America doesn't look like the photo he posted. America looks mostly like this - highways and highways + strip malls and strip malls.

Whereas a good 40-60% of Dominicans - depending of where you go in the country, live 4-5 in a room, in sustenance living. Not that there's anything wrong with the way they live, but some perspective is required surely.

Charles Murray: Why We Dislike the New Upper Class | TIME Ideas | TIME.com


Portrait of American poverty

Photographs of American Poverty by Joakim Eskildsen - LightBox

 

[windeguy]

Wow, Still some points that need clarification:

Thank you for this feedback and detailed response. I wasn't aware of all the history. Not sure I agree that today DR is being 'invaded' by large number of Haitians though.

I take it you have never been here to see for yourself? It is indeed a problem.

Nor do I think it's a bad thing...

I see, so you feel that illegal aliens are a good thing in a country.

Nor can I agree that 'Dominican' actually has a meaning?

You mean like being American has no meaning?

It's a relatively recent construct - no more than 200 years old.

And the 35 extra years the USA has been around makes a difference?

It feels like 'self hate' to say one is Dominican and not recognize that there are suppressed and enslaved African roots underneath, the same roots as the 'Haitians'.

People have tried to explain the history to you of both countries, but you are not yet getting it.

.

 

[Randall Bell]

Charles Murray: Why We Dislike the New Upper Class | TIME Ideas | TIME.com


Portrait of American poverty

Photographs of American Poverty by Joakim Eskildsen - LightBox

Dear Sir - what precisely does this prove? you've sent me 32 photos. There are 300+ million people living in America. I never disputed that there's poverty in my country. Your photos have reaffirmed that point. Thank you. But I plead with you to have some sense of perspective. 300+ million people living in America DON'T live in the form that those photos have shown. You can't use the extreme examples to paint a picture of the 'typical' example...

 

[Taino808]

Dear Sir - what precisely does this prove? you've sent me 32 photos. There are 300+ million people living in America. I never disputed that there's poverty in my country. Your photos have reaffirmed that point. Thank you. But I plead with you to have some sense of perspective. 300+ million people living in America DON'T live in the form that those photos have shown. You can't use the extreme examples to paint a picture of the 'typical' example...

Dear Sir, I would suggest that you not only look at the pretty pictures, but also read the article below. The article state that 46 million Americans (this is roughly equal to the total AA population) lives in poverty.

46 million people living in poverty of 300 million people of a total population, is well over 16% of the total population of the USA.

 

[Randall Bell]

Okay... you 'win'. Happy?

Enjoy your Sunday afternoon. I'm already into my 3rd beer, so we both win.

And as for that building at the border - still not convinced it's a good use of money. They could let students design it instead of giving it to a 'well known' architect. They could save the money and spread it across other more important things.

Cheers. have a nice weekend.

 

[bob saunders]

Well you said it brother! lol. But let's try not to whitewash the impact of 500 years of slavery and let's not forget who was responsible...




Why would Dominicans - slaves from Africa owned by the Spanish - care if the 'Spanish language' was eliminated? it was not their language. Why would they care if the 'catholic church' was suppressed? It was not their religion to begin with? Their own native African languages and animist religions were erased during 500 years of oppression. It's the same on both sides of the island.

I'm sure you know the old expression - Una Faccia Una Razza.

Ignorance knows no race, creed, or country. You are commenting on a subject you obviously know little about. A little research is required but I'm sure you'll just drink down a couple more beers and make more stupid comments. If I said the French were the same as Italians and Italians were the same as Spanish would I be accurate?

 

[Randall Bell]

Ignorance knows no race, creed, or country. You are commenting on a subject you obviously know little about. A little research is required but I'm sure you'll just drink down a couple more beers and make more stupid comments. If I said the French were the same as Italians and Italians were the same as Spanish would I be accurate?

Relax - Sorry I didn't mean to offend you. Why are you so abusive mate? It's Sunday afternoon, get a grip.

The people who make up hispaniola:

* Was French nor Spanish their 'original' language?.

* Catholicism or any form of Christianity their 'original' religion?

The 'one race one face' refrain originated in Italy and Greece, so I guess in a sense you are accurate.

Have a nice Sunday.

 

[Chip]

Well you said it brother! lol. But let's try not to whitewash the impact of 500 years of slavery and let's not forget who was responsible...




Why would Dominicans - slaves from Africa owned by the Spanish - care if the 'Spanish language' was eliminated? it was not their language. Why would they care if the 'catholic church' was suppressed? It was not their religion to begin with? Their own native African languages and animist religions were erased during 500 years of oppression. It's the same on both sides of the island.

I'm sure you know the old expression - Una Faccia Una Razza.

First of all whites and blacks were responsible. Slavery existed in Africa before the white man.

Second, as far as "what did the blacks from Santo Domingo care" well first of all there were very few slaves on the East side and unfortunately for you apparently the majority of the mixed race population perceived themselves as Spanish and Catholic - much as they do today. Maybe you should stop postulating what you think you believe Dominicans think of their language and culture and ask them. Oh wait, you already did and it doesn't agree with your grand "theory" so they must be wrong.

 

[Chip]

Relax - Sorry I didn't mean to offend you. Why are you so abusive mate? It's Sunday afternoon, get a grip.

The people who make up hispaniola:

* Was French nor Spanish their 'original' language?.

* Catholicism or any form of Christianity their 'original' religion?

The 'one race one face' refrain originated in Italy and Greece, so I guess in a sense you are accurate.

Have a nice Sunday.

You are highly confused. While it maybe appear "to you" that Dominicans are African the fact is they are mulato and have very significant amount(even a majority amount) of Spanish "white" blood even if their skin color doesn't show it. Therefore it is a farce to say the least to speak of their "original language". Dominicans are a mixed race people and identify as Hispanic and are now many are accepting their African roots but to claim their original language and culture is African is and non Christian just shows how little you know.

 

[Randall Bell]

You are highly confused. While it maybe appear "to you" that Dominicans are African the fact is they are mulato and have very significant amount(even a majority amount) of Spanish "white" blood even if their skin color doesn't show it. Therefore it is a farce to say the least to speak of their "original language". Dominicans are a mixed race people and identify as Hispanic and are now many are accepting their African roots but to claim their original language and culture is African is and non Christian just shows how little you know.

Reminds me of that song: "You put the lime in the coconut and drink them both up..."

Okay I'll nibble. If Dominicans are 'mulato' as you call them (or bi-racial), that means a mix of 'white' and 'black'. So where and how did the Black part of your equation get mixed into the 'mulato'?

Did the 'black' part arrive here voluntarily?
Did the 'black' part arrive here speaking Spanish and Praising a Christian God?

Good night everyone.