Dominicans and their ancestry

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DulcineaToboso

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Pib my panties are all in a bunch... come get them out

Pib said:
Watch out that you don't trip over your tangled undies.

What does it matter what colour I am? Does it add anything to my argument? Can't you get past the messenger and judge the messange on its own merits? Don't you see it proves exactly my point?

I apprecciate what I am, that is what I made of myself. How should I expect others to see me for what I am (and not for a few twitches in my DNA chain) if I don't define myself by what I want them to see?

Your reply to my questions shows me that you have nothing to add to your argument. We do not live in a Utopia. This is the real world with prejudice, hate and violence. Millions of people are persecuted everyday because of their race, and if you think that simply wishing it away, or not talking about it will make the problems disappear then I suggest you go join Peter Pan or MJ in Never Never Land.
 

Lovelylocs

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I have a question for the people who do not consider most dominicans to be black but rather a "mixed" group that deserves to be called something else. We all know that the blacks of many other countries including the US have mixed ancestry as well. Yet, despite having a white grandfather/etc. they are still referred to and refer to themselves as "black". So, my question is: how would you define the race of an American black person who looks more like Will Smith, Beyonce Knowles, or Ruben Studdard?
 

Criss Colon

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yahoomail.com
And Here I Thought That An "Octaroon" Was A Coconut Cookie!!!!

Anyone who spends this much time analysing the "Un-analysable" has an "agenda"!When I see a "Person of Color",I see a "Person-Of-Color"!My "Kids" are all "Little People Of Color"!Never in my life have I ever thought about what "persentage" "Of Color" they are.Or what persentage of "White" they are! Fools Erand"!!!
I think about how fortunate that I have 5 kids and they all are healthy,and have all their body parts in the right places!!
Why are so many of you sooooooooooooooo preoccupied with "skin color"and not quality of character???
 

Mirador

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"...American black person..."

This racial confusion with 'blackness' arises from the mistaken notion that all 'dark skin' is attributable to African heritage. This is farthest from the truth. The fast is that most American aboriginals were dark-skinned. Take for instance the ethnic group Way? (currently numbering about 120,000), located in the Guajira peninsula overlapping the countries of Colombia and Venezuela, most of their members are darker than present day Dominicans, and they don't have a drop of African blood in them.
 

Naufrago

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Actually, I always heard that the anthropologists say that we all came from Africa. And that we were all black about 20,000 years ago. Some of us just lost our color due to inbreeding and mutation, along with our sense of rhythm.
 

Mirador

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Actually, according to most recent research, there's no evidence of Negroid populations in Africa before about 15.000 BC. The original inhabitants of Africa are the ancestors of present day Bushmen and Pigmies, which are non-Negroid. It's anthropologically correct to assume that the Negroid originated outside of Africa. Where? hasn't been determined. Maybe in Escandinavia?

Mirador
 

samiam

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Criss Colon said:
Anyone who spends this much time analysing the "Un-analysable" has an "agenda"!When I see a "Person of Color",I see a "Person-Of-Color"!My "Kids" are all "Little People Of Color"!Never in my life have I ever thought about what "persentage" "Of Color" they are.Or what persentage of "White" they are! Fools Erand"!!!
I think about how fortunate that I have 5 kids and they all are healthy,and have all their body parts in the right places!!
Why are so many of you sooooooooooooooo preoccupied with "skin color"and not quality of character???

They are all black.....And dominicans who have a Cedula that says Indio are all black just as their Haitian neighboors are black and Jamaicans are black and Nigerians are black......sheeesh Say it loud, I am black and I'm Proud!!Lets face it, Dominican Republic is closer to Africa than to the Arawaks who lived here, so drop the indio thingie.....its ridiculous.
 

Mirador

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Simian says: ...sheeesh Say it loud, I am black and I'm Proud!!

Simian sounds like a black supremacist. No need for this 'black power' bit in the DR...
 

Jon S.

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Jan 25, 2003
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People, people, people....

Give it a rest with the 'they're black/they're something else' discussions.........what a waste of time. Character, capabilities and being a person of principle determine it all in my book.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Don't you hate it when people from other countries try to shape our culture?

My God, people blame the Spaniards for their "missionary expeditions", but look what's happening today!

The conquistadors are still around, except they are not the Spaniards anymore!

But, maybe we should give this topic a rest.

Afterall, all those people saying Dominicans are all black are only talking, but they don't back up their info.

List a web link, a book, a news article, a magazine article, something please to validate your claims. Other than that, its nothing more than worthless talk from their part.

Show me the data and I might believe you. Until then, I'll beleive what has been proven to me.

Mulatto is different from Black, white is different black, and that is the truth. I have shown some of my sources, now show me yours.

BTW, Europe is becoming increasingly mulatto over the years. Notice that the Europeans recognize that what's happening is a "mulatization" of their continent (along with arabs around), not a "blackening". Why?

Because being mulatto has a different composition than being purely black or white.

Again, show me the data please.

Nothing in this world is as it appears to be, so show me the data.

Show me the data.

Show me the data.

This link is one of many that proves that being biracial or multiracial is not the samething as being uniracial.

It also proves the agenda of a few people here, which is to make Dominicans conspire against each other based on colorlines that really don't exist.

The point of this article is to prove from an American black who calls himself black but acknoledges that most American Blacks are not 100% pure (thus they are not black). But, it proves that the reason why the US is so separate when it comes to intermingling is because of their own hate towards each other.

A poster here wants Dominicans to stop marrying "white people". That is the type of hate they want for our country and that is a disgrace. The DR has been a country of united people for over 100 years and now these American influenced peoples want for our country to break down on racial lines in a country where few people truly are 100% white, black, or native.

http://blackinformant.com/index.php?p=447
 
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NALs

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To get an idea of the type of Dominican Republic many of these people want (a DR where people hate each other on the bounds of race lines).

Keep in mind, these links are about news that occured in the US (where most of these "Dominicans are Black" ideas are coming from)...

These are things not seen here in the DR based on race, but will sure become as common as it is in the US once this black/white foolish mentality takes hold, if it ever does...

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/07/big_isle_attack.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/07/call_denver_off.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/07/race_attack_pro.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/08/one_arrested_in.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/09/student_says_he.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/02/23_years_for_ra.php
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/01/ai_knew_what_i.php
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Thanks for citing your reading material. It's always a joy to learn where you get your information. You just cited a extremist right-wing, KKK-styled, white supremist newsletter site. Really, thanks.

Here is what they have to say about people that come to NY looking for a job:

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/03/police_sweep_up.php

If anyone here needs to get a grip, it's you.

As for your request I believe some loyal posters have cited very credible reading material, Montaner.

PEACE

Nal0whs said:
To get an idea of the type of Dominican Republic many of these people want (a DR where people hate each other on the bounds of race lines).

Keep in mind, these links are about news that occured in the US (where most of these "Dominicans are Black" ideas are coming from)...

These are things not seen here in the DR based on race, but will sure become as common as it is in the US once this black/white foolish mentality takes hold, if it ever does...

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/07/big_isle_attack.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/07/call_denver_off.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/07/race_attack_pro.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/08/one_arrested_in.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2004/09/student_says_he.php

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/02/23_years_for_ra.php
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/01/ai_knew_what_i.php
 

NALs

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deelt said:
Thanks for citing your reading material. It's always a joy to learn where you get your information. You just cited a extremist right-wing, KKK-styled, white supremist newsletter site. Really, thanks.

Here is what they have to say about people that come to NY looking for a job:

http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives/2005/03/police_sweep_up.php

If anyone here needs to get a grip, it's you.

As for your request I believe some loyal posters have cited very credible reading material, Montaner.

PEACE

That was my point.

You don't see such thing like that here in the DR.

Here people identify themselves first as Dominicans and then as the whites, blacks, and mixed that they are. Nothing more, nothing less.

You don't see racially motivated groups coming into play, racist organizations like KKK or Black Panther coming into play, etc etc etc.

Those things exist in the US and not in the DR. The way each contry has looked at race (the US very sensitive, the DR very laidback towards this issue) reflects the level of segregation that still exist in the US and the level of integration that exist in the DR respectively.

Then again, it might come into existence if the persistence of imposing the black/white mentality comes into the picture.

I'll even go as far as saying that the reason why a person like Deelt (who has said she is mixed) exist today is because of the Dominican way of looking at race which allowed the generations of mixing to eventually create the modern day Deelt.

Deelt would have had a very low possibility of coming into existence if the DR's way of looking at race would had mirrored those of the US.

This is the other side of the US racial views...
http://www.marxists.org/history/usa/workers/black-panthers/
 
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deelt

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Again, that is really interesting you see this as a possibility. That's kind of a pessimistic take from a person that has been know to have a rose-colored view in general.

First, no one is asking to take on a US point of view of anything.

If DR is sooo embracing why do you think that DR would ever have white supremist groups? The white should just embrace the blacks and mulattos. People who found these kinds of organization must feel they have something to lose. What would a white supremist Dominican have to lose?

The Black Panthers only came into being after 400 years of oppression. It was a natural extension of the spectrum of protest. The Young Lords, the Latino version of the BP, also had similar roots. If you notice all the surviving activist that participated in both of those organizations have gone on to do AMAZING work and contribute greatly to society. The latter would not have been the case, had their been no value in their debate.

The question is what does DR or the few who control this debate have to be afraid of? Just food for thought.


Nal0whs said:
Here people identify themselves first as Dominicans and then as the whites, blacks, and mixed that they are. Nothing more, nothing less.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Again, that is really interesting you see this as a possibility. That's kind of a pessimistic take from a person that has been know to have a rose-colored view in general.
It's not a pessimistic point of view. It's just a reflection of what has happened in the US (where legal segregation help infuse the current rocky black/white attitudes there) and what has happened in Latin America (where the average person don't discriminate based on race, despite a few here and there).

The reason for the US racial problems is due to its reconstruction after the civil war with the implementation of segregated public places based on the color of a person's skin.

Such thing has never officially existed in the DR and has never been widespread in the majority of cases in the private sector either.

First, no one is asking to take on a US point of view of anything.
Looking at the world in black/white terms. That is an American view point and that is what people want for the DR.

If DR is sooo embracing why do you think that DR would ever have white supremist groups? The white should just embrace the blacks and mulattos. People who found these kinds of organization must feel they have something to lose. What would a white supremist Dominican have to lose?
Because if darker Dominicans and mulatto Dominicans begin to see any light skin person (dominican or not) as "evil", well evil is what will come out of it.

Look at our relations with Haiti. Dominicans have a rocky relations with Haitians and Haitians with Dominicans because each look at each other as evils.

Intentional segregation breeds these types of thing in all societies, even societies that are very embracing as the DR.

The Black Panthers only came into being after 400 years of oppression. It was a natural extension of the spectrum of protest. The Young Lords, the Latino version of the BP, also had similar roots. If you notice all the surviving activist that participated in both of those organizations have gone on to do AMAZING work and contribute greatly to society. The latter would not have been the case, had their been no value in their debate.
I have noticed and that is good for them, but their beginnings were not meant for such "niceness".

I mean, I can always point to the fact that the DR started as a country of masters and slaves and today it become an embracing society.

If you truly believe that those organizations have become better despite their rocky start (and I do agree with you here), then the same can be said of the DR as a whole.

Afterall, not many countries become a mulatto majority if there are tensions between the races, don't you think. Look at Cuba, only after Fidel Castro imposed his vision of a colorblind society (though all his economic policies are short of being suicide for Cuba), but only after his colorblind agenda did Cuba became more Mulatto and today Cuba and the DR are the only two countries in this hemisphere with mulatto majorities.

The US should have been largely mulatto by now if it was as "embracing" as is often claimed. Yet, the US is 3/4 white with whites still largely marrying whites and blacks marrying blacks and those who are mixed being looked with suspicious eyes from both blacks and whites.

The question is what does DR or the few who control this debate have to be afraid of? Just food for thought.
There is nothing to be afraid of, except the country becoming so embroiled into this race thing of looking at everything in black/white terms (in a country so mixed like ours) that it could weaken our national unity to the point of being at risk of political and national decay.

The only thing that keeps countries together is the different types of unities. One of our most cherished features is our relative relaxed attitude towards race (thus our mulatto majority), and causing tension among attitudes that have traditionally been relaxed could spell some rather stormy years for the country as a whole.

Look, the US went through hell in the 1960s for being so tensed when it came to race relations and today everybody over there still has a bit of salt in their mouth when it comes to race relations. The same can't be said of the DR today or ever and that is something we should be proud of.

In short, race doesn't matter as long as people identify as that which they are. In other words, Dominicans should just identify as Dominicans, period.

Focusing tension into race issues that we just don't have to the extent of other countries is stupid, especially for a country like the DR that is at a point that the US wish it would have become, a colorblind society.

That doesn't mean a 100% racist free country, just a country that is much more colorblind than most as such, we might as well consider ourselves a colorblind country.

Here is the other side of the American view.... My point is this, blacks and whites are in adverse situations in the US, much more so than in the DR, that's why I don't understand why people want to impose American views on our country when we have gone way beyond the point where America stands today in terms of race.

(This link was sent to me by a friend of mine)
http://faculty.ncwc.edu/toconnor/soc/355lect11.htm
 
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deelt

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Look, Nals, I don't have time to respond to your mused ramblings.

First, no one is saying that Dominicans be called anything other than Dominicans. National identity is not in discussion here.

What is in discussion is the open acknowledgement and respect of who the majority of Dominicans are when they look in the mirror minus the derogative language. It is the issue of self-denial and surpression that is the problem. Its an issue of changing the dialogue so that people don't learn to hate/insult/etc the way they look.

I am sure that if DR were to do this it would improve Dominican-Haitian relations as well. To me it's a diplomatic win-win.

There is no concerted long-standing historical perspective, Trujillos massacre and social exclusion aside, that would lead anyone to believe that DR is going to become the US in terms of race relations. Again, get a grip.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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D?jalo....

Deelt,

I will give you some advice you once gave me "let it go" some things can not be changed. Anyone here who can read intelligently will clearly see that the objective is continuously being missed. Your point has been made. Te felicito. Eres una mujer sumamente inteligente. Our reading has been done. It's up to the others to do theirs. When you finish reading Carlos Alberto's book I will gladly discuss it with you. It's an eye-opener.


Te cuidas,

-Lesley D-




deelt said:
Look, Nals, I don't have time to respond to your mused ramblings.

First, no one is saying that Dominicans be called anything other than Dominicans. National identity is not in discussion here.

What is in discussion is the open acknowledgement and respect of who the majority of Dominicans are when they look in the mirror minus the derogative language. It is the issue of self-denial and surpression that is the problem. Its an issue of changing the dialogue so that people don't learn to hate/insult/etc the way they look.

I am sure that if DR were to do this it would improve Dominican-Haitian relations as well. To me it's a diplomatic win-win.

There is no concerted long-standing historical perspective, Trujillos massacre and social exclusion aside, that would lead anyone to believe that DR is going to become the US in terms of race relations. Again, get a grip.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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deelt said:
Look, Nals, I don't have time to respond to your mused ramblings.

First, no one is saying that Dominicans be called anything other than Dominicans. National identity is not in discussion here.

What is in discussion is the open acknowledgement and respect of who the majority of Dominicans are when they look in the mirror minus the derogative language. It is the issue of self-denial and surpression that is the problem. Its an issue of changing the dialogue so that people don't learn to hate/insult/etc the way they look.

I am sure that if DR were to do this it would improve Dominican-Haitian relations as well. To me it's a diplomatic win-win.

There is no concerted long-standing historical perspective, Trujillos massacre and social exclusion aside, that would lead anyone to believe that DR is going to become the US in terms of race relations. Again, get a grip.
Maybe we should just take Leslie's tip, since I think both of us have made well beyond our point in this topic.

However, I would like to know your opinion on the rest of my comment. PM them to me if you like, but please do take the time.

I don't know if you use the time excuse to opt out of discussing something or you truly don't have time.

In anycase, get around to answer them at least in a private PM, because I don't have much time either and yet I manage to answer to your posts from end to end.
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Quick back of the envelope math lesson

Since joining on board:

Nals:
Avg. post: 2 post/day * 8464 char/post * 1sec/char * 1hr/3600sec =

4.7 post-hr/day

Deelt:
Avg post: 1.5 post/day * 1264 char/post * 1 sec/char * 1hr/3600sec=

0.5 post-hr/day

I over estimated on mine just in case. In both cases I averaged over 3 standard trademark posts char/post averaged over several threads. Figures do not include thought process nor grammatical correction. For this I will generously grant 1 hour for me and way underestimate 1 hr for you. Again, I'll give each of us only 0.5 hr margin to read general posts/day an standard estimate for me an underestimate for you.

This means that you spend 6.5 hours out of an 8 hr work day posting. I spend at most 2 hrs/day assuming a similar work schedule (I work more than that).

Any one who can afford to spend almost 7 hours out of an 8 hr work day posting is just not that busy. Sorry, I agree with you on this: let's just agree to disagree and no I will not PM you on this. You read y response clearly enough. I have to work for a living.

PEACE

Nal0whs said:
Maybe we should just take Leslie's tip, since I think both of us have made well beyond our point in this topic.

However, I would like to know your opinion on the rest of my comment. PM them to me if you like, but please do take the time.

I don't know if you use the time excuse to opt out of discussing something or you truly don't have time.

In anycase, get around to answer them at least in a private PM, because I don't have much time either and yet I manage to answer to your posts from end to end.
 
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