Haiti can not catch a break

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
982
113
Thanks Chip, that's really interesting. However, I wasn't boiling Haiti's problems down to the Duvaliers, I know it was just one aspect of a long and troubled history.

Incidentally Haiti isn't the only nation on earth to have shot itself in the foot by kicking out the clever folks - Spain did in the 15th century but it managed to recover, eventually.
 

RacerX

Banned
Nov 22, 2009
3,390
376
0
This is very true! Some of us never have or never will understand the ferocity or demons that come with hunger!

I'm one of those people that could probably never fully be satisfied! I can not accept nor conceive the hunger around the world...what happen in Haiti truly hurts my heart and shatters my soul that much more.

I mean come on folks, who the hell decides to eat decides to eat dirt?
 

RacerX

Banned
Nov 22, 2009
3,390
376
0
You are right that this event will be an impetus for future growth and investment in Haiti.

I predict many foreigners involved in the many years long redevelopment will stay and start businesses. The international community will be throwing a lot of money at the situation and this will attract foreign development. In 5 years look to see PAP 15 years ahead of where they are now.

As far as the oh so predictable pc comment about the colonizers, if it weren't for the "international interlopers" getting involved they really wouldn't be going any where soon.

As far as where Haiti is at today, no doubt there repayment loans to France hurt them but then again their institutionalized and viscious massacre of the educated class during the revolution is what really did them in. Did they need to massacre so many whites and mulattoes to gain their independence? Unfortunately, these were all the country had that were educated and had trades and skills.

the truth is is without the international interlopers they would have gotten farther than they are now. Now they are going backwards. This is the same thing that affected Bolivia and all those central South American countries.

Your last comment is something that the Brits said about Uganda when they started to displace the Indians.
 

RacerX

Banned
Nov 22, 2009
3,390
376
0
The causes of any serious problem are complex. But is haiti really so different today from most west african countries where most of the people are descended from?
What matters is finding solutions so Haiti can become an fully independent, self sustaining country built on their long term natural strategic advantages. It would be awesome to see Haiti giving the DR and other nearby islands a run for their money in business.

There is a racist connotation in your 1st sentence.
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
16,350
1,358
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Just wanted to chime in here with one of my favorite quotes

from Booker T Washington

"I have learned that success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome while trying to succeed."

the mere fact that Haitians are up and walking about is a tribute to their immense character
 

RacerX

Banned
Nov 22, 2009
3,390
376
0
Well is it?

Yes it is. But those are my assertions. I know people believe the history that they have been indoctrinated to believe. And that history makes the world your dominion. This is European history as we have learned it. But it is a liars review of the world and their place in it. We should believe that these people know nothing about governorship nor democracy nor achievement or prosperity. Because if they did they would be. There always, ALWAYS, the sentiment that if they did one thing, just ONE THING then the world would be a big warm bowl of peaches and cream. But there is never one thing you can do, there is one plan could implement and hope it works out in your favor. Lets be true here, the government of Haiti worked just as it was supposed to for the people who had the money to make it work for them. Just like New Orleans, just like Iraq, just like the whatever the future has in plans for the "soothsayer" lying scumbag "intellectuals.
The greatest thing I can see to come off this event is more attention to the disastrous consequences of bizarre international foreign policy. What we have is a world where 1st World countries get economic competition from 3rd World countries, 2nd World countries are nowhere to be found and the level of failed states keeps growing into a precarious state of anarchy which compromises the interests(much more the blinding profits) of the multinational corporations that reside in the 1st World but flee to dummy shell corporations in the 3rd World to avoid paying taxes.
 

RacerX

Banned
Nov 22, 2009
3,390
376
0
Well is it? Know why northern countries are more sucessful, and it has nothing to do with colour of skin or intelligence. Cold versus heat is the reason.

Cold vs. Heat?
Explain Russia? Poland? Greece? Spain? Italy? Ireland? It has nothing to do with weather. That s your personal impression.
Like I told POP, my impression is religion....and thievery(but to me there are one in the same).
 

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
429
0
Santiago
the truth is is without the international interlopers they would have gotten farther than they are now. Now they are going backwards. This is the same thing that affected Bolivia and all those central South American countries.

Your last comment is something that the Brits said about Uganda when they started to displace the Indians.

I infer from your numerous posts that facts don't concern you; many of your theories and comments are poorly researched and are based in your personal view of the way things should be.

When in doubt, do what ostrich's do; stick their head in the sand.
 

Berzin

Banned
Nov 17, 2004
5,898
550
113
The causes of any serious problem are complex. But is Haiti really so different today from most West African countries where most of the people are descended from?

There is a racist connotation in your 1st sentence.


Adrian Bye can speak for himself, but I believe he was speaking in terms of the socio-economic underdevelopment Haiti is suffering from that mirror the circumstances from whence the majority of Haitians descend from.

I do not believe this is a racist statement, I believe Adrian was speaking to the same conditions that are affecting both regions. There is no question that international intervention in the form of imperialism has had a negative affect both politically and economically. But the question is, "where does Haiti go from here?"

RacerX, accusing a respected DR1 member of making a racist statement really does your credibility no good. You are articulate enough to make your point without having to resort to such demagoguery.

It is true that some opinions on this matter are based on subjective and uneducated "gut" feelings, but let's try to be civil in discussing this very controversial subject.
 

brown_girl103

New member
Oct 9, 2009
94
4
0
I probably shouldn't be reading any of this, but I am trying to pass the time while I wait to hear from my "poor and uneducated" husband in Haiti to reach a safer place in Lord knows what kind of conditions and obstacles he will be facing... due to a NATURAL DISASTER.

I have been to Haiti, it is a beautiful country. The Dominican Republicans... should be happy that this catastrophy did not affect their country, their economy and most of all, it's people.

4 hurricans in a row, a school collapsing... now an earthquake. This is not the fault of the Haitian people. Politics plays no part of this. The dead babies, mothers, father, brothers, sister, etc.... that is what we should be thinking about.

I could go on and on about the political implications behind Haiti's poverty and behind the fact that so many countries have been ravaged and almost destroyed by slavery and etc etc... but, I would like to mention that slavery... on a mass basis did not occur by the people in Africa, Asia or pre-occupation America. We see the results of hundreds of years after slavery today even within North America.

My point is... please... just look in your hearts... and think what if my loved one was there? Take a minute to donate even $5.00 from your cell phone and be happy that your not directly affected. Be happy that you have a bed, food and no NATURAL DISASTER to be worrying about... or whether or not your loved one is alive... safe... hurt....

I originally opened this thread because I thought people had hearts and were concerned for the people of Haiti. Not to discuss the political history of this country that once again has been ravaged by a NATURAL DISASTER.
 

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
429
0
Santiago
I probably shouldn't be reading any of this, but I am trying to pass the time while I wait to hear from my "poor and uneducated" husband in Haiti to reach a safer place in Lord knows what kind of conditions and obstacles he will be facing... due to a NATURAL DISASTER.

I have been to Haiti, it is a beautiful country. The Dominican Republicans... should be happy that this catastrophy did not affect their country, their economy and most of all, it's people.

4 hurricans in a row, a school collapsing... now an earthquake. This is not the fault of the Haitian people. Politics plays no part of this. The dead babies, mothers, father, brothers, sister, etc.... that is what we should be thinking about.

I could go on and on about the political implications behind Haiti's poverty and behind the fact that so many countries have been ravaged and almost destroyed by slavery and etc etc... but, I would like to mention that slavery... on a mass basis did not occur by the people in Africa, Asia or pre-occupation America. We see the results of hundreds of years after slavery today even within North America.

My point is... please... just look in your hearts... and think what if my loved one was there? Take a minute to donate even $5.00 from your cell phone and be happy that your not directly affected. Be happy that you have a bed, food and no NATURAL DISASTER to be worrying about... or whether or not your loved one is alive... safe... hurt....

I originally opened this thread because I thought people had hearts and were concerned for the people of Haiti. Not to discuss the political history of this country that once again has been ravaged by a NATURAL DISASTER.

Speaking for myself as I believe others posting on this topic, with all due respect if you think anybody is not stricken by the suffering you couldn't be more wrong.

Furthermore, anybody who loves and is concerned with the Haitan people would be concerned for their well being. I have been to Haiti and I live in the DR and it is clear the Haitians generally have mcuh less than Dominicans. It doesn't have to be this way. The Haitan leaders and people need to open their arms to the foreigners and allow them to do their work rebuilding. Not only that they should put away foolish pride and encourage foreigners, including Dominicans, to stay and invest. If you think that the situation in the City of Sun hasn't affected investment in Haiti you don't know Haiti.
 

brown_girl103

New member
Oct 9, 2009
94
4
0
Chip,

My point is that we should be focusing on the issue at hand and the topic of this thread didn't imply to me that people would be delving into the history and politics of Haiti and it's foreign relations present and past. And I do know Haiti, I have been there, my family is there, my husband. Glad you've had the opportunity to visit such a beautiful country and that you know so much about it and it's people and their views and opinions and that you can speak on their behalf....
 

RacerX

Banned
Nov 22, 2009
3,390
376
0
Adrian Bye can speak for himself, but I believe he was speaking in terms of the socio-economic underdevelopment Haiti is suffering from that mirror the circumstances from whence the majority of Haitians descend from.

I do not believe this is a racist statement, I believe Adrian was speaking to the same conditions that are affecting both regions. There is no question that international intervention in the form of imperialism has had a negative affect both politically and economically. But the question is, "where does Haiti go from here?"

RacerX, accusing a respected DR1 member of making a racist statement really does your credibility no good. You are articulate enough to make your point without having to resort to such demagoguery. You re grasping here...but its nice to know you have a dictionary

It is true that some opinions on this matter are based on subjective and uneducated "gut" feelings, but let's try to be civil in discussing this very controversial subject.

If he can speak for himself then you dont need to speak for him. I wasnt accusing him of making a racist statement but now that you have forced the issue, it is a racist statement. The allusion is that those people have descended from people who in their own native area have not been able to establish a strong government and always seem to have a tenuous hold on democratic principles. My response, Chip, is that the facts dont lie but the people who report them do. The facts are that when an area has resources of which there is a demand for, it benefits the people who want them to keep them or exploit them(or hoard them). Why bother to negotiate for the development and extraction of whatever exists if we can just create turmoil and strife? Strife sells. You dont believe me? I can spend the next 4 hours giving you examples in recent world history going back no more than 70 years.
That statement is the same thing as "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" and the ubiquitous "those people....." You see, those people dont know anything about governance because even over there where they came from they dont know anything about governance. It is always mayhem and chaos wherever THEY go. "Its just not in them." And then we transfer remove the significance of money meddlers and assert hereditary phrenology as the culprit. "They may be inferior...genetically, you know, or culturally". Is this a stretch to make that claim now that we have inferred that some rag tag country in the middle of the Caribbean can rule itself no better than some West African republic? And no one else in the world has meddled in their affairs to their own financial benefit? Why is Aristede in South Africa? Why is there no National Guard or Police over there? Why is the police force a privatized regiment? Why are they feeding their children dirt? Why would they deforest the hillside when they were farming 10 years ago? Everyone is corrupt? EVERYONE?????????????? You dudes make these statements like they dont know right from wrong and they choose to destroy the firmament and soil by stripping down the land. You gotta cook with something, if you have food to cook. Children eating mud and getting bowel obstructions and constipation from doing so and add to this developing tapeworm infestations of the colon because of the parasitic eggs and mites that exist in the soil(which in itself may have fecal material from another human or other species(possibly feral dogs or field mice). Now we ll leave her for one second and go to Gaza where the children there get acute kidney failure from having to drink sea water, because there is a water filtration plant but no one wants to make it work. So...so...so...so, you want me to believe SERIOUSLY that exploitation of the human being isnt a profitable enterprise? That I can make it rain dollars(over here) by concentrating your suffering(over there)? When you tell people that there existence is meaningless you have opened Pandoras box.
Civility? Please! "We dont need no stinkin' badges!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: ExtremeR

Berzin

Banned
Nov 17, 2004
5,898
550
113
RacerX-if you've read some of the other posts on this subject, you'll see that I admit to being mistaken and said so.

Nothing wrong with admitting this. But your tone is militant and a bit abrasive, therefore no one is going to listen to you and your posts will be marginalized.

You may not care, but to have a voice here that people actually respect, you must take a page out of the book of some of our most eloquent public speakers and not be so divisive.

I would rather listen to Cornell West that Louis Farrakhan any day of the week. But if you would rather be recognized as a race-baiting buffoon, the choice is yours.
 

Adrian Bye

Bronze
Jul 7, 2002
2,077
138
0
There is a racist connotation in your 1st sentence.

And this highlights the problem with bringing up problems with culture. Its easy to be labelled as racist. If I were racist I would not live in a country which is 70% dark skinned like the DR.

I don't believe for a second the problem is with the the haitian/west african races.

I believe the problem is with their CULTURE, per my other thread.
 

Willowtears

New member
Dec 17, 2009
122
8
0
RacerX-if you've read some of the other posts on this subject, you'll see that I admit to being mistaken and said so.

Nothing wrong with admitting this. But your tone is militant and a bit abrasive, therefore no one is going to listen to you and your posts will be marginalized.

You may not care, but to have a voice here that people actually respect, you must take a page out of the book of some of our most eloquent public speakers and not be so divisive.

I would rather listen to Cornell West that Louis Farrakhan any day of the week. But if you would rather be recognized as a race-baiting buffoon, the choice is yours.

With all due respect because you are the moderator, I think it's wrong your marginalize RacerX opinions...I hate to think of this forum as a dictating system..."take out what you don't like!"

I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing with RacerX opinions, but it's wrong to cut-out his opinion, simply because you and others did not approve of it.
 

Willowtears

New member
Dec 17, 2009
122
8
0
And this highlights the problem with bringing up problems with culture. Its easy to be labelled as racist. If I were racist I would not live in a country which is 70% dark skinned like the DR.

I don't believe for a second the problem is with the the haitian/west african races.

I believe the problem is with their CULTURE, per my other thread.

Race and culture are very gray areas to discuss and have an opinion about. If most of the individuals on this forum cannot accept to read another person's opinion, then these discussion should not be aloud to begin with.

Talk about another culture is equivalent to opening Pandora's box and letting war out!
 

RacerX

Banned
Nov 22, 2009
3,390
376
0
RacerX-if you've read some of the other posts on this subject, you'll see that I admit to being mistaken and said so.

Nothing wrong with admitting this. But your tone is militant and a bit abrasive, therefore no one is going to listen to you and your posts will be marginalized.

You may not care, but to have a voice here that people actually respect, you must take a page out of the book of some of our most eloquent public speakers and not be so divisive.

I would rather listen to Cornell West that Louis Farrakhan any day of the week. But if you would rather be recognized as a race-baiting buffoon, the choice is yours.

1. That choice is yours, Farrakhan is more interesting than Cornel West. West is a gasbag, if I do say so. Overly eloquent for no real purpose. And dont think I dont know him, West from Sacramento, Ca., accused of rape as a young man, went on to get a PhD and presently teaches at Princeton. I know Cornel West. If you ever compared what the 2 of them say you d see it for yourself.
Race baiting buffoon? Whats YOUR agenda Batman? You cannot find one statement I made which baits race. Nope, not one. Excuse me but who is the person that said natural selection would have eliminated these people in the past? Me? No, it was not me. And I should defer to whom for what? Because he has been here longer? If you re wrong, you re wrong.
If you make a general statement it is because it is prelude to your position on the subject, now excuse, me if I draw the most clear conclusion one could make from the premise written. I like how one is so astute as to condense the entire scientific philosophy of Darwinism into a 3 word bumper sticker.
2. I am not militant nor abrasive. If you believe it to be maybe it is because my writing style is overtly expressive. It may have hurt your feelings, but is this what we re discussing here? Your feelings? Cannot apologize for that. And will not deflect from it. I was under the impression that we re talking about the people who suffer needlessly?
3. I m not divisive. I didnt make comparison between here and there and assert that a failed state here and a failed state there must be within these people because they originated from there. Wasnt me. But it was me who took offense to it.
And finally, you cannot get a tone from reading an article. The only tone you get is the one you transcribe to it. You consider my writing style abrasive while people die from hunger in the street. Whats wrong with you man? I like how you prioritize offense, man, real scientific. Its like another day on the golf course, right? The people will know this event now and in a year from now when we move onto something new. And next year when he look at the next disaster these people will still be stuck in a life of inadequate subsistence.
4. I posed real questions in that post. And no one has posted answers why not? Were they invalid? Off point? Or do they proffer answers one may not want to consider?
And by the way the most progressive action in human civilization have ALWAYS come from the margins.