Patwa or Creole

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tordok

Bronze
Oct 6, 2003
530
2
0
Barnabe said:
No creole in DR.

Why? Any historic, or social reason?

How did the Spaniards communicate with their slaves? Or didn't they have slaves? Or did they teach them Spanish?

Barnab?

No. A distinct creolized form of native communication outside of Spanish is not in evidence. Even cibae?o, is of course, "in Spanish". ;)

Yes, Spaniards had slaves and they spoke to them in the Spanish language.
Yes, Slaves learned Spanish and largely abandoned African norms of language.

Keep in mind, by the time of the revolution (1791-1804) in Haiti, large segments of the slave population was African-born in relationship to island-born. Their numbers were also much larger than in the Spanish side. Large plantations were uncommon on the Spanish (later Dominican) side.The Kreyol evolved into lingua franca among the people from various tribes of different African languages and the French master's tongue. The substantial number of maroons on the mountains may have spoken something other than Kreyol and French. Such phenomenons of lingusitic exclusivity did not happen in Dominican territory, except when it came from outside groups as in the case of "cocolos" and their Caribbean English or Haitians and their Kreyol.
And since the mortality rate was lower than in St. Domingue (later Haiti), generations of families speaking the same language (Spanish) evolved even among the rural illiterate (a majority of the population until recent decades).
Even under French or Haitian rule, all Dominicans continued to use Spanish as their standard. Haiti evolved with parallel languages: French as formal, Kreyol as informal. Different histories explain different facts.

- Tordok
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,517
3,210
113
locofoto said:
Hmmm... Are you sure about what you are talking about?

I am European and happen to have some extensive personal experience with Colombians and the economic situation of Colombia. And I haven't found proof for what you just said. Pardon me, but it looks to me like the DR could learn a lot from Colombia regarding public services, education and manners. Please don't take it personal but "parking assistants" in front of public buildings are not known in Colombia neither you have to bribe your way in cases of a little paperwork that has to be done. The list can be extended quite a lot.
I have been to Colombia a couple of times (one time to Bogota and another to Cartagena). I must say that Colombia is less chaotic than the DR, that becomes quite obvious, especially in Bogota. The part that kills it for that country are those terrorist drug loards who instill unnecesary fear on its inhabitants and has damaged the image of that wonderful country to a level that it will take decades to erase.

However, one must always keep in mind that there are more older Colombians number wise, then there are Dominicans. In fact, over half of the DR population is under 18! As such, the reactions and chaotic nature seen in the DR could be attributed to the extremely young population and to the lack of huge numbers of older people.

I think that if the DR would have had alot more older people, the country would have been less chaotic than it currently is. You can see the testament to this idea right here in the DR. Areas of the country where there are substancial numbers of older peoples, there tends to be more civility and sligthly more orderly than areas of the country that don't have a significant older population. This same issue can be seen right here in Santo Domingo, where neighborhoods that have more older people than neighborhoods that have more younger people tend to be slightly more civilized.

Wealth also has alot to do with this and quite frankly, the vast majority of the poor in the DR are children, mostly due to the rampacious acts of many poor Dominican men who look at women as sexual objects who shall comand to the demand of a men, in other words, they are full of machismo. Such attitude is partially responsible for the high number of illegitimate children in this country who are born into poverty and exacerbate the poverty rate as well. If you notice, among the older segment of the population, there is a much larger percentage of wealthy and middle class people than among the younger segment.

As its clearly visible, these people of different classes don't live in the same neighborhoods, for the most part. As such, their different behavior patterns are noticeable when one goes from one end of town to the other, despite the patterns being blurred because people of all kind are found moving around every neighborhood in this capital city.

Colombia has a higher number of educated, well off people and due to their numbers, they have a bigger impact on their society, especially where well off people are numerous such as in Bogota. The samething applies in the DR, but to a lesser degree.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,517
3,210
113
Barnabe said:
No creole in DR.

Why? Any historic, or social reason?

How did the Spaniards communicate with their slaves? Or didn't they have slaves? Or did they teach them Spanish?

Barnab?
Another good reason behind such notion is the definition of what a slave is.

In French and British colonies, slaves were considered to be property, not human. In sharp contrast, in the Spanish colonies slaves were considered to be property, but they were also recognized as being humans and the same thing applied to the Native Americans in both cases.

In addition to this, the Spaniards purpose for colonization and that of the British and French were slightly different.

For the British and French, they wanted to colonize and did colonized for the purpose of reaping profits. That explains why British and French colonies tended to be more self sufficient than Spanish colonies.

On the other hand, the Spaniards colonized to take gold and move back to Spain, in other words, to become rich. The Spaniards also had a huge interest in spreading Christianity and so, their conquest took a religion twist to it. Spaniards also imposed their own culture to the slaves. It's a little known fact, but most of the slaves brought to Santo Domingo for the use in Santo Domingo were African slaves who were already working in Spain. As such, many of the Slaves who were brought were already very "hispanic". Contrast that to the many slaves that the British and the French directly imported from Africa, with only white indeture slaves coming from their mother countries.

Of course, as years went by, a number of real Africans infiltrated the DR via Haiti and during the occupations, but their effects (though still slightly noticeable especially in Samana and San Pedro de Macoris with the Cocolos) were less on the general population than that of the slaves brought from Spain.

In addition, many of the Tainos who survived and mingled and intermarry (it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the first mestizos came into existence 9 months after Columbus landed on the island and Spaniards accepting their children as their own further help move Taino traits into the population which later got mixed with African traits). There have also been some discrepancies in the assumption that all Tainos were annihilated, since many Tainos who adopted Spanish customs and lived a European lifestyle, as well as mestizos were considered to be Spaniards or Europeans. As such, nobody really knows how many Tainos and mestizos actually survived after the suppose annihilation of their people, simply because their categorization as Taino or Spanish or Mestizo was not really based on biological facts, but just on cultural implications. This very much parallels current patterns of Dominicans categorizing each other in manners that the rest of the world doesn't seem to understand.

Just how the Spaniards mixed very well and accepted these different peoples into their own sphere of existence, so too were the different characteristic of each culture blended. African, Taino, and European cultural traits were blended in just about everything by everybody. The food is a mixture of the three, the biological composition of many Dominicans is a mixture of the three, the music is a mixture of the three, the art is a mixture of the three, everything Dominican points to a mixture of African, Taino, and European elements. Even the language is a mixture of the three, with different words of the three languages and different speach patterns merging to become what we today know as "Dominican" Spanish.

Now, there have been many reasons for why the Spaniards were so open to so much mixture. In fact, the Spanish crown encouraged the Spaniards to mix and intermarry with locals and African slaves were often sexually exploited by their masters. Of all the reasons, the one that makes the most sense to me is the notion of the Spanish moorish conquest. During the time the Spanish were conquered by the Moorish, despite severe opposition, the Spaniards picked up many Moorish or Arabic cultural traits. Some words such as Alcazar, which is Arabic for Palace or Castle became part of the Spanish language. Architectural elements like multiple arches which is an element prominent in Arabic areas, became part of Spanish architectural norms. Even some musical styles resembles those of the Arabics and there was no doubt a biological mixture of Spaniards and Arabic. Many sociologist and anthropologist believe that the Spanish (and to some extent the Portuguese) exposure to these foreign peoples alleviated their stigma of mixing with non-Europeans once they made the crossing into the New World. This is in stark contrast to the attitudes of the French, British, and other European nationalities that made it to these shores.
 

FuegoAzul21

New member
Jun 28, 2004
217
0
0
Quisqueya said:
oK, ALOT of some what you said I will not reply to since nothing nice will come out of my keyboard...But I will comment on this...So since I'm haitian it makes a difference if I insulted you and rather it(insults) come from lets just say "colombians". I know so many who talk about you guys so bad that I have to say damn..cut it out...everyone have good and bad within their community...but would a domincan do the same..not many but I have dominicans friends in the DR/USA/Canada/Venezuela/Haiti who would stand up or at least tell them to put a lid on it...

See I find that only poor/low class dominicans talk bad about poor/low class haitians...Majority of the middle/upper class knows better and wouldn't dare disrespect or stereotype a middle/class haitian...You know Why? Cause we are not fighting for petty crums just to get by.. I've never been offended by a dominican until I came onto this board..Well, only once a dominican on the train from NY to NJ asked me and a friend if we were speaking french and we replied know we are speaking creole..and his comment to his pana was "No parece como Haitainos..Los haitianos son oscuro y feo" Thats when I had to put his little chopo behind in check b4 he got off the train to go home to the slums of N. Newark...luckily the next stop was his or I would've............. I hope you get the picture

When will you people stop stereotyping and be realistic...Like you said everyones culture and nation can be ridiculed.....And the way you say "Haitian" has a negative conotation...Anyway, back to the subject..ALL HAITAINS SPEAK CREOLE AND NOT PATWA..


What? was what i said not true ,vodou makes a huge part of Haitian culture , do you disagree with that? oh no , to you all Haitians are French speaking scholars and devout Catholics ? you have to remember that 95 percent of Haitians are not like you, but you know what, beleive what you want .Also, you mean to say that a Dominican would not say anything to someone talkin bad about their culture?!!!!, Amigo , usted esta bien equivocado, i have no idea where you got that from ,there is not one ethnicity i know of that would let that happen ( if the person is from that country or feels very strong and proud about their culture) ,let alone Dominicans ,which since i figure you know quite a bit about Dominicans ,you should know.Dominicans talk bad about other hispanics too , i say again ,everyone is guilty of it .Now , If you insult a Dominican on something that has nothing to do with the culture or the country then it doesnt matter what you are ,but if its on the cultural and nationalistic levels , it also doesnt matter where you are from ,but you must remember the history behind everything , so when a Haitian insults a Dominican on those terms its different(especially on these boards).as for the Dominican guy , there is the good and the bad for every group, maybe this guy was not tryin to insult you , maybe just explaining to his friend what he believed, was the average Haitian , he probably got that belief from personal expierience , so maybe you should have thought about that before you started to harass him ,but no one else would think of that in a situation like that , so i honestly dont blame you .North Newark is considered one of the nicest parts of Newark . Also, you should follow your own advice about stereotypes and being realistic , and I dont know how is it that you felt the way i wrote 'Haitian" was to a Negative conotation , i was trying to be respectful , if it did, My apologies. oh yeah Haitians speak Creole not Patios
 
Status
Not open for further replies.