57% of Dominicans live in poverty

[dv8]

exactly, crm, thank you. a moron would inherit and lose, a wise man works to add to the family wealth.

 

[NALs]

All I'm going to say is that wealth is not a zero sum game.

There is no fixed amount of wealth in the world, its constantly growing or decreasing, depending on what and how people (whether individually or collectively as in a nation) decide to spend their time.

Wealth is not just transferred from one hand to another, it is created or destroyed.

In fact, the belief that wealth is zero sum is one of the main fundamental mistakes of socialism and is the main driving force behind much of the hatred and envy towards the rich.

:classic:

 

[cobraboy]

AND that that society doesn't put obstacles in the way, either deliberately or accidentally.

Individuals put far more barriers to success onto themselves that society ever could.

Gubmint runs a close second.

It's a socialists fantasy that if everyone had the same resources, their outcomes would be the same.

 

[cobraboy]

I've seen examples of charter schools all over the inner cities of the US INSPIRE "at risk" kids to superior performance. There are many examples of this. Institutions cannot force success but they can enable success. This is not an exclusively American phenomenon. It can be used as a template for an equivalent Dominican phenomenon. It's when we throw our hands in the air and give up hope for any group of people, be they divided by race or nationality or class or income that we fail to live up to our own collective potential.

I agree that ultimately it's the individual's actions that will determine their success or failure but it is just as important to the society at large to ensure that all of its individuals are afforded opportunities to succeed, if so motivated.

It's interesting how factions of elected gubmint and teachers unions do all they can to eliminate Charter Schools.

It's the "throwing up of hands" that destroys people. And generally they are pursuaded by outside forces that they can't make it, they're a victim, society is out to get you, etc.

I love folks who tell the negatrons in the world, those that enable victimhood, etc., to screw off...

 

[Lambada]

What would be an example of those obstacles?

The squandering of public money (lining politicians' pockets) which can lead to resentment by the tax-paying business community, who do not have a well-educated workforce to draw from & are thus either obliged to sponsor those they see as having potential or rely on family networks for managerial level staff, which in turn leads to reinforcing the already obvious social stratification.

Yes I too have seen people who have overcome enormous hurdles, but it is through individual effort, not because that path was facilitated somewhat by having affordable access to good education and health for the majority. They succeed in spite of structural inequality, not because society/the state/the political economy of the country is facilitating their advancement.

 

[AZB]

Change your words? If you look back at my post, all I did was quote your post exactly. You might have meant "pakistanis and indians", but you used the term "immigrants". Your words, not mine. But it matters not. It's still a grossly broad and inaccurate statement. One that I doubt that you could support with actual numbers. Yes, a lot of Pakistani and Indian immigrants come to the US and do well. Especially since a large number are already quite educated when they get here. But not all Pakistani and Indian immigrants are so fortunate. Therefore, for you to say that all who come to the states end up being successful, (and before you try and backtrack, you did use the term "all") is a very broad and unsupportable statement.

As far as Katrina is concerned, you're the one who said that 98% of the victims were black. Do you always spout statistics that you can't support? Katrina's victims represented a number of races. But it is a know fact that the majority of the flooding damage in the actual city of New Orleans was in certain wards where the majority of the population is black. And a lot those people stayed on their property because they were used to riding out storms, and their homes were all they had. Stubborn, absolutely. But to say they suffered because they were too lazy to take precautions is just stupid. And it shows how very little you know about the situation. The entire city, along with the federal government, failed to take precautions. You may have traveled there, but you didn't learn anything.

Let me guess, you are black?
Viva obama.
AZB

 

[AZB]

oh no, no. rich do not deny the poor a chance for quality education. the poor deny it themselves. ask anyone in a barrio who gets more respect, someone who says "i have a big jeepeta" or someone who says "i have a phd"? no, my fellow, the poor do no value education at all and they would not "waste" their time on getting any degree even if it was completely free of charge. this is very sad because it is ultimately the education that allows personal and professional growth.
yet still many large companies in this country and many rich families offer grants or lead charities that allow poor folks access to universities. miesposo mentioned that he was in PUCIMM with some people who got their degree because of private sponsors.
i have a girlfriend who comes from the campo, she got pregnant at 16 and started working at 17. it has been several years and she managed to build a small house in the campo (with some help of her family), she bought a car (small, japanese), she finished university and she now works as an accountant, all through hard work and determination. she is now very proud because her daughter got the first place in a reading contest at school and she is putting all efforts to give her kid a good education so she can progress even further.
i do not quite get the argument about inheriting money. what is wrong with that? this money has been made at some point, within few generations, it did not drop from the sky like manna...

excellent post.
AZB

 

[Lando calrisian]

Oh Cibaenopuro???????? Is this where you thought your thread was going to end up?? I still many who don't want to work and they just get by, I have a 3rd cousin who I am watching, he is doing well in school and I always quiz him to see what his goals are. He told me he wants to be a lawyer, so I'm quietly putting money away to help him out when he is ready I think he will do well. I have another cousin who is master contractor, the guy is always broke and is always drinking ( I luv you Cuquito) but all he wants to do is go to the USA. I tell him if he just got off his behind he would actually do better. We offer him work on our properties and he always say's "ustedes pagan muy poco".

Then I have my friend Peter, he is a structural engineer, he started out in a teeny tiny small office in an alley, one old computer and a printer that didn't work.

Now he is a partner in a four man firm with his own office and they are looking for a secretary, they have an inversor, five computers, printers and a small office kitchen with a bathroom!!!! He even went to Haiti to get a job done for another firm.

Both of them poor guys, from humble, humble backgrounds, Peter is getting ahead, Cuquito is just getting by and bigger beer gut, God Bless him.

So 57% of Dominican's live in poverty? They don't have too, the much maligned AZB did make a great point "many of them have poverty in their minds". My father (who suffered the worst discrimination in the USA because he was black as coal and a non english speaker) say's the same thing, a man who came from the poorest of the poor area's in Santo Domingo, MATA HAMBRE and has travelled all over the world!!!!! You can live in poverty, but you don't have to be poor, that is what he say's. I appreciate all the comments of all of you who come from abroad and now live in DR have made. It makes me happy that you all care so much!!!

 

[Berzin]

It's interesting how factions of elected gubmint and teachers unions do all they can to eliminate Charter Schools.

There are (unsurprisingly) a lot of politics behind the charter school system. I will use NYC as an example-

Here are some of the details-

1) Charter Schools siphon off funds from existing schools, lowering the per-child amount of money a school gets when a charter school opens in their area.

2) The parents who look to get their children into a charter school are the ones who are most concerned about their children's education. They are also, by and large, the children who do better academically.

Administrators who let their best students walk out the door to a better educational opportunity see a decline in their school's overall test scores. Test scores are what an administration is judged by. Low enough scores two or three years in a row and the administration get removed from their jobs.

This is why it's such a political hot potato. It's not only the Teacher's Union that are against this but Board of Education administrators as well. They have launched a behind-the-scenes attack on charter schools, but it's not something that gets play in the newspaper because it's politically more expedient to paint the Union as the traditional bad guy.

This is but one aspect of this ongoing fight, and by no means are the Teacher's Union saints in all this. But I felt for the sake of balance to present some facts that would paint a more complete picture.

 

[bachata]

Oh Cibaenopuro???????? Is this where you thought your thread was going to end up??
Is the same in all the threads; AZB ends up talking about the high society and the people he socialize with. op talking about racism etc....
You can live in poverty, but you don't have to be poor, that is what he say's. I appreciate all the comments of all of you who come from abroad and now live in DR have made. It makes me happy that you all care so much!!!
That is the way I like; playing domino in the colmado but living in a home paid at all, with no credit cards depth, some incomes and a good amount of money saved in the bank

La cuestion no es ganar mucho sino saverlo gastar..

JJ

 

[corsair74]

Let me guess, you are black?
Viva obama.
AZB

:ermm::ermm::ermm::ermm::ermm::ermm::ermm::ermm::ermm::ermm:

I'm not sure what that has to do with anything. What does me being black have anything to do with you making baseless claims that you can't support with any facts? Is my being black an issue for you? If not, why even bring it into the discussion? I haven't. All I've done is refute your statements with proven facts. Your ignorance is really showing here.

Oh yeah. Adding "Viva Obama" at the end of your posts doesn't make your comments any less ignorant or racist.

Sheesh! I mean, you claim to travel a lot. And it was Mark Twain that said, "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." But you, my friend, are living proof that this adage doesn't apply to everyone.

Open your mind and get a clue.


Vince.

 

[cobraboy]

There are (unsurprisingly) a lot of politics behind the charter school system. I will use NYC as an example-

Here are some of the details-

1) Charter Schools siphon off funds from existing schools, lowering the per-child amount of money a school gets when a charter school opens in their area.

2) The parents who look to get their children into a charter school are the ones who are most concerned about their children's education. They are also, by and large, the children who do better academically.

Administrators who let their best students walk out the door to a better educational opportunity see a decline in their school's overall test scores. Test scores are what an administration is judged by. Low enough scores two or three years in a row and the administration get removed from their jobs.

This is why it's such a political hot potato. It's not only the Teacher's Union that are against this but Board of Education administrators as well. They have launched a behind-the-scenes attack on charter schools, but it's not something that gets play in the newspaper because it's politically more expedient to paint the Union as the traditional bad guy.

This is but one aspect of this ongoing fight, and by no means are the Teacher's Union saints in all this. But I felt for the sake of balance to present some facts that would paint a more complete picture.

I would lump edumacation administrators/bureaucrats in the same pile as teachers unions since they feed from the same trough.

Fact is, they are against Charter Schools not because it raises edumacational opportunities for students but because of their own self-preservation.

THAT, in a nutshell, is the problem.

That's not the problem with the DR from what I can tell. Here the problem, to a greater extent by far than the US, is funding.

 

[bob saunders]

The squandering of public money (lining politicians' pockets) which can lead to resentment by the tax-paying business community, who do not have a well-educated workforce to draw from & are thus either obliged to sponsor those they see as having potential or rely on family networks for managerial level staff, which in turn leads to reinforcing the already obvious social stratification.

Yes I too have seen people who have overcome enormous hurdles, but it is through individual effort, not because that path was facilitated somewhat by having affordable access to good education and health for the majority. They succeed in spite of structural inequality, not because society/the state/the political economy of the country is facilitating their advancement.

Yes but those politicians are not from the 6% that Greydeard control everything and not the masses from acheiving greater education and wealth. Most of those politicians started in the 57% that are poor. The current government has facilitated programs for teachers to upgrade their qualifications, get their master degree...etc. The same can be said for doctors. There are night school programs, there is a literacy program for adults, there is a program for teachers to go to isolated areas to teach or facilitate. Certainly more resources should be going to education of all forms, but serious efforts are being made. In the end it is still up to the individual to suceed regardless of the barriers.

 

[cobraboy]

In the end it is still up to the individual to suceed regardless of the barriers.

But bob, if you make the individual responsible it minimizes the "need" for a Big Gubmint...

 

[corsair74]

Yes but those politicians are not from the 6% that Greydeard control everything and not the masses from acheiving greater education and wealth. Most of those politicians started in the 57% that are poor. The current government has facilitated programs for teachers to upgrade their qualifications, get their master degree...etc. The same can be said for doctors. There are night school programs, there is a literacy program for adults, there is a program for teachers to go to isolated areas to teach or facilitate. Certainly more resources should be going to education of all forms, but serious efforts are being made. In the end it is still up to the individual to suceed regardless of the barriers.

I can agree with this. So I guess the question is, how do you give someone drive and ambition? How do you inspire someone to better themselves?

I think that a lot of it starts in the home. But I also think that dominicans need better role models. Everyone can't play "beisbol". I think that Junot Diaz should be a household name. However, I'm willing to bet that the average dominican has never heard of him. But everybody knows "Big Papi". It seems that Dominican "Heroes" consist of politicos and atheletes. They need to hear about Dominicans who have succeeded in business, and the arts and sciences.

Sometimes people need to be shown what it's possible for them to achieve before they are inspired to better themselves.

 

[RacerX]

exactly, crm, thank you. a moron would inherit and lose, a wise man works to add to the family wealth.

No one knows what tomorrow may bring. So it has nothing to do with being wise or stupid. It counts but its not a necessity.

The Great Depression and current RE boom and busts prove that.

 

[RacerX]

Individuals put far more barriers to success onto themselves that society ever could.

Gubmint runs a close second.

It's a socialists fantasy that if everyone had the same resources, their outcomes would be the same.

Jim Crow is a self imposed obstacle, sure.....

 

[greydread]

oh no, no. rich do not deny the poor a chance for quality education. ......................i do not quite get the argument about inheriting money. what is wrong with that? this money has been made at some point, within few generations, it did not drop from the sky like manna...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with inheriting money, family businesses or land. It's what Capitalism is all about and one of the reasons the rich emphasize the imortance of their children's education is because they don't want them to stupidly squander all they've worked for.

My point is that with great power comes great responsibility. Oprah Winfrey (from Baltimore's slum AZB), Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, Phil Knight, Michael Bloomberg, T Boone Pickens and the rest of the top of the economic food chain are also at the top of the philanthropic food chain. There are many more who give not only money but dedicate a good deal of their time to their causes of concern. Bill Cosby went back and got his Phd. in education after he became rich and famous (from Philadelphia's housing projects, AZB) and has worked in the field full time while entertaining part time. There are millions of stories of people who rose from nothing to join the ranks of America's top 10 percent of income producers. This top 10% (here's the part that's going to turn the OP upside down) earned over 48% of all reported income in the US in 2005 (the highest since 1928-just before the crash, BTW).

2005 US income figures: top 10 percent had largest share of national wealth since 1928

The top 10% of income earners in the US earn half the income for the entire country yet the US still manages to maintain a pretty strong middle class. Go figure. It's not "magic". The difference is the proportion of giving by the more fortunate and the management of standards and services by the "Gub'Mint". Without those standards and services the two above mentioned former "ghetto dwellers" would not have been able to accomplish what they did. Before EEOC, the Voting Rights Act, Fair Housing Act and a host of legislation which came out of the '60's civil rights era the only black people on TV in the US were Amos and Andy and Nat King Cole and the Amos and Andy series has been banned from television for it's derogatory portrayals which reinforce the type of bass ackwards stereotyping that has (unfortunately) appeared in this thread. The African American percentage of population has actually fallen since then but the media representation and opportunity has skyrocketed. Bob Johnson started BET on $15,000 and sold it to Viacom for $3 Billion....That's opportunity, not a small house and a jeepeta and maybe a little shop on some street corner...a real stake in the Nation's finance.

People keep mentioning that the politicians in the DR are by and large products of the 57% of the nation's poor. That's exactly why they dance like puppets on strings which are manipulated by the country's wealthy. They don't want to go back to the 57%. They have acted as overseers for their real bosses until now and I hope the people continue to demand more from them. Say what you will about him, I think Leonel is the most progressive leader in the region right now and he may just 'get it'.

 

[cobraboy]

Jim Crow is a self imposed obstacle, sure.....

Dang! I thought they got rid of those 50+ years ago?

Silly me, I didn't know they were still being enforced...:bunny:

 

[greydread]

Since we're asking....

Let me guess, you are black?
Viva obama.
AZB

Let me guess, are you a bigot?
Viva Rush.