- Thread starter cibaenopuro
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57% of Dominicans live in poverty
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My comment was not about the USA it was about governments and STRONG NANNY STATES. Perhaps you need to stop reading things in to conversations that are not there.
Who said this: "A claim is made that some important service can be provided only by the government, and this is used as an excuse for trying to prevent anyone else from trying to provide it. As a result, of course, the claim becomes self-confirming."
This is the problem with the government control of electricity in the DR. The people working within that ministry know little about electrical generation, distribution, or enforcement of laws. They are only interested in collecting a pay-cheque. A great deal of the poverty in the DR is because of the subsidies and stealing of electricity. Combine that with lack of education and you get a society of people that do just enough to feed themselves and have enough left over for some beer and rum.
It's also noting the irony in that we see so much waste here in the States knowing what a few dollars could do in the DR, but I'll own up to going off on tangents...
I knew we could find something to agree on.
Perhaps the moderators could be a bit more moderate in their moderation, as the thread is on topic, with posters using theories and analogies to make their point(s).
not quite...
There's a difference between socialism and fairness.
People who are able bodied and of relatively sound mind should work. Those who can't should be cared for by those who can. Those who do should be able to afford the necessities of life without having to hustle outside of their primary employment. They should be able to afford a decent basic education, health care and other necessities for their kids.
The problem as I see it is that the unfair distribution of wealth in the DR has forced many hard working and honest people to act outside of their nature to survive whether it be cheating taxi fares, intentionally overcharging for goods and services or selling their behinds.
Thankfully the remittances from abroad have helped to sustain many families but at what cost? I can tell you from my own experience that I would never steal as long as I have the power to work. I will also never beg as long as I have the power to steal if work is not an available option. If the work is not available where I am then I'll go where the work is. I figure that most people who have to work for a living feel pretty much the same as I do about it.
So you can generalize, mischaracterize and cast aspersions 'till you're blue in the face but the poverty which encompasses over half the citizens of the DR is a direct result of the feudal mindset of the elite and the recent windfalls from the steady increase in tourism there over the past decade should be directed toward improving the lives of the country's hard working poor.
There's a difference between socialism and fairness.
People who are able bodied and of relatively sound mind should work. Those who can't should be cared for by those who can. Those who do should be able to afford the necessities of life without having to hustle outside of their primary employment. They should be able to afford a decent basic education, health care and other necessities for their kids.
The problem as I see it is that the unfair distribution of wealth in the DR has forced many hard working and honest people to act outside of their nature to survive whether it be cheating taxi fares, intentionally overcharging for goods and services or selling their behinds.
Thankfully the remittances from abroad have helped to sustain many families but at what cost? I can tell you from my own experience that I would never steal as long as I have the power to work. I will also never beg as long as I have the power to steal if work is not an available option. If the work is not available where I am then I'll go where the work is. I figure that most people who have to work for a living feel pretty much the same as I do about it.
So you can generalize, mischaracterize and cast aspersions 'till you're blue in the face but the poverty which encompasses over half the citizens of the DR is a direct result of the feudal mindset of the elite and the recent windfalls from the steady increase in tourism there over the past decade should be directed toward improving the lives of the country's hard working poor.
If poverty was a simple topic, we could have done something about it. We should keep to easy things-- like world peace..
With blame going to lazyness, corruption, international effects, culture, resources and defining what is and isn't poverty with very little common ground on any aspect of it, it's no wonder this thread is a train wreck. But people care about the topic so it goes on.
With blame going to lazyness, corruption, international effects, culture, resources and defining what is and isn't poverty with very little common ground on any aspect of it, it's no wonder this thread is a train wreck. But people care about the topic so it goes on.
Hahaha, we are all wasting our time. The poverty scale will not tip towards in favor of the poor any time soon. There are people living in dead-end poverty culture and they are not about to get out of this mindset any time soon. We are just talking to each other because we have time to waste or we are just trying to one-up each other. You guys who live outside of DR and only have tourist experience in this island, I recommend, try spending time planning your next vacation here. This is one of the ways you can help the economy here. You experiences with political/social climate of usa or canada does not apply here. Things among the poor are not about to change for better. This is the lifestyle here and this is the way it will be for many years to come. The hustlers advance in life and the lazy get to take the back seat. Case closed.
AZB
Totally disagree.
The poverty here, and elsewhere, is quite simple in economic terms: there are more people than there are resources to support them.
This is not unique to the DR.
Per capita GDP is per capita GDP. That number assumes ALL income is distributed to ALL people (which it, in reality, is not.) The per capita GDP in the DR is a low number (around US$8000+/-, depending how you want to measure it; compare this to the US$46000+/- of the US).
All the gubmint programs and redistribution in the world won't change that. The ONLY way to get people out of poverty...and it IS working today in the DR, as the number of poor people IS reducing every year they are measured...is to raise the GDP at a rate faster than the increase of population. A rising tide and all that. Raising GDP requires private investment, not gubmint redistribution.
Fact is a big problem with the DR is not just unemployment, but underemployment. Universities are pumping out qualified graduates every year...without an economy to absorb their skills: ^# of graduates>^#of available jobs requiring their skills. Try recruiting for a professional position...as I have recently done...and see how many resumes you get from gaggles of advanced degreed folks begging for work, any decent work, in their field. And unlike North Americans and Europeans, they cannot just go to where the work is. Most are "stuck" here.
A radical increase in edumacation with no place to use it can cause as much discontent as the current situation and does little to raise GDP. You just have a more edumacated group of poor, discontent folks. In fact, educated folks may be more pi$$ed about it than unedumacated folks.
Not pointed at you, dread, but for folks to think that some radical change in the DR gubmint would solve economic woes and poverty is very naive economic thinking.
The official unemployment rate estimate for 2009 was 15.1%
Let's say the estimate is dead wrong and unemployment is as high as 25%.
That means that 75% of the population works for a living which pretty much takes them out of the ranks of the "lazy".
Offset the 57% poverty rate by the (new high estimated) 25% and you're left with 32% of the country's working citizens who can't afford a decent living from a hard week's work. That ain't a mindset and it isn't a very smart way to run a country.
Reducing the nation's talent pool by undereducating, undernourishing and underpreparing it's youth is the best way any country can ensure future dependancy on foreign talent, foreign aid and foreign remittances. It's how you create a "Welfare State". Investing in improved national education standards broadens the talent pool and makes it possible to sell technological services abroad, advance agricultural, construction and manufacturing techniques and utilize natural resources without destroying the environment. Government should encourage reinvestment from the private sector from those who hoard their wealth in Barcelona, Geneva and Miami.
You wanna fix the electrical power problem? Allow private companies (national and foreign) to compete for regional service, create a shared grid between them and stay out of their way. The stealing of power will end abruptly. Who cares if a foreign company is providing your power if it's providing thousands of good paying jobs to your people and paying into your national coffers?
The government should back off, become less protectionist and allow progress to happen. Let the private industries compete for the right to guide the country into the 21st century and let the government manage the direction of public funds so that it does the most good for the public.
Here's an analogy for you:
Q. Why did I spend all that money to put my kids through college?
A. Because I want to be in a really nice place when I come to live with them.
Privatering of previously governerd businesses can (they usely do) turn in to massive collective lay offs, not a very good thing for the common man and his family who depended on that income and where many are maybe at an age where he/she is just a little too old to re-enter the market AND with no other skills then what he/she has been doing for the previous 25 or 30 years.
Could work out just fine if this common man or woman has a good labour party to support him and makes sure that the common working man gets a good bonus (although a big chunk of that bonus will be taxable helas) and other support but if there is not such a backup, it can be a real disaster.
I don't take any offense to your perspective. The presentation may be occasionally abrasive but hey, we're just sharing ideas here.
From the early '90's we've been recruiting hundreds of thousands of IT specialists, physicists, geologists, chemists, mechanical and electrical engineers, doctors, nurses, statisticians, etc. using the H1b visa from all over the World. We seem to have gotten a disproportionately small number from Americas and the Caribbean in particular. I'm not going to mention where the disproportionately large number came from lest I be pounced upon by a mod.
The beauty of the H1b visa is that a sponsor company can use it to hire well qualified candidates for specialized fields at a generally lower rate than the Dept. of Labor averages. This rate of compensation provides the employee with far more purchasing/ saving/ remittance providing power than they would have in their home countries and they get practical experience to apply and / or teach when they return home.
The ugly of H1b is that many don't return home. They usally either marry into resident alien status before their H1b visa is up and we end up with a bunch of overeducated taxi drivers.
Host countries should be implored to be as quick about returning the country's professionals as they are about returning their criminals.
Maybe some are, I'm actually interested in the topic and action to ameliorate the situation. Since you have returned to thread AZB, I wonder if you would be so good as to correct this statement:
Unfortunately there were people who mistook your gratuitous medical diagnosis as being for real and wrote to me somewhat concerned. I told them you weren't a brain surgeon & maybe you should stick to yeast infections.
Getting back to economic models in this country viz. what might ameliorate the poverty levels - there have been some interesting contributions coming from CONEP (the national council of private businesses). According to economist Isidoro Santana 'Recalc? que la econom?a dominicana registra cada a?o tasas de crecimiento altas que sin embargo no se reflejan en ning?n progreso productivo ni en mejor?a en el nivel de vida de la poblaci?n.
Explic? que esto se debe en gran medida a que el crecimiento se registra en actividades de importaci?n, comerciales y de servicios, estas dos ?ltimas de manera informal. Dijo que esas tres actividades no generan mucho empleo y ?mucho menos empleos de calidad?.' (emboldening mine)
Ve pol?ticas econ?micas son da?inas al modelo
Lisandro Macarrulla, President of CONEP, also spoke in this vein
Modelo de desarrollo del pa?s es insostenible
Let me guess...India?
And thats indeed your perspective of the "ugliness" of the H1b visa. I see the ugliness more in the fact that real proffesionals are asked, almost begged to come in with that visa at really low wages and then suppose to leave again after giving their knowledge to your fellow country men.
Dang Bob, you said something I agree with, Now if they would stop deleting messages it would have made much more sense in context to whatever you said YESTERDAY.
I finally agree with the "Cro?Magnon". You delete message without knowing the context and then the posts that follow sound disjointed and unspecific...because its like reading a book with pages missing.
Besides you HAVE to talk about the United States because we have to compare what took the US from a developing country to a developed one. Especially when its only 500 nautical miles away.
Again, you can always be counted on to utterly miss the point. Everyone seems to agree that poverty is a major issue, and the eradication of it is unlikely. What makes your posts so distasteful is that you seem to enjoy it, and all the benefits that come with exploiting poor folks. Your posts make it clear that you chose DR because the economic inequalities would allow you to exploit others, and that the WORST thing that could happen for you would be for a substantial middle class to be created, raising prices and thereby "robbing" you of your economic advantage.
Either way, you don't know me, so don't presume my experience is limited to long weekends in Classico's.
Back on topic. There is a direct correlation between the ascent of the BRIC nations and the improvement in educational opportunities there. The same can be said for the DR. A crop will produce the best yield if planted in fertile soil.
As was stated earlier, if the DR employment rate is 85% and the poverty rate is 57%, then that's a real problem, as it creates a disincentive for working to better oneself.
The main problem with poverty - and a point that I would agree with AZB to a very limited extent on - is that one must be familiar with the DR as more than a casual tourist to properly understand the extent of poverty over here. Suffice to say, for all too many people here, living in the old Robert Taylor homes project would be a significant step up. NA or Euro poverty is NOT the same as Dominican poverty, by a mile.
So here's a SOLUTION for an individual: I suppose my PC nature won't let me shrug and say "if it's ok for them, then it's ok," then ask for some young kid to introduce me to his 19 y.o. hottie of a sister. If you're so knowledgeable, then give up an hour a week and go tutor. Take on a intern or runner. Introduce some promising students to some of your "rich and influential" friends and ask them to do the same. If they refuse to help show a six year old the way out of cyclical poverty, that says a hell of a lot more about them - and you - than it says about the child.
Pass on a Juovanny Polanco concert and take some kids on a tour to a college campus. Instead of hitting on the co-eds, ask them to talk to the kids about their life experiences.
And the following week, do it over again. Just like you think you are, I'm a highly credentialed, busy professional, with my own clientele and contacts that might even impress you, but I find the time to do all that. You can too. It ain't easy, but like I said before, "to whom much is given, much will be expected." Assuming you can get over yourself and stop being so damn selfish all the time.
Welcome to the world of making a difference for the better, Aftab.
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