Are people living in USA are really better off than us here?

[Danny W]

What is the big issue of not having lights 24/7 in DR? the solution is so simple: just get a damn inverter with 8 batteries and your problem is solved. I never have a black out in my house (maybe onces in 2 yrs when the blackouts last 12 plus hrs). I really don't care about black outs as long as my computer and my TV stays on. My inverter is the best investment that I had made in this country.
You complain about water shortages? Big deal, solution: get a huge water tank on the roof and your problem is solved for life.
Gasoline is rationed? fill up the tank and you are set for a few days.
Every problem in DR has solutions and often times, the solution is simple and a life time fix.
We have advanced telecommunication systen. DSL was here way earlier than many US cities. We have major airports in every major city, major resorts and sun all year round. Some people think we live in a 3rd world country. You want to see a 3rd world country, try visiting Haiti, you don't even have to go to rwanda to see the real poverty. Its right next door to us.
Please do not give me this 24/7 lights lame excuse.
AZB

True, almost all problems can be resolved, and that includes living a lifestyle you can't afford in the US. There are many cities outside of San Francisco and NY where people have a nice lifestyle on a normal income. Obviously the public education system and police are better in the US. Obviously a dollar goes a long way and life can be beautiful in the DR. Someone mentioned the change of seasons - that's one of the great joys of life. The feeling I get when I walk out of the POP airport and see the smiling faces of my family is indescribable. We're idiots if we can't find happiness wherever we are. - D

 

[jackquontee]

What a hell of a discussion

I was just having this discussion with someone the other day, so I can't help jumping in here.

johne, you've got some very legitimate points, but I would argue that the percentage of those who live the lifestyle you have mentioned and who truly enjoy it is, in all likelihood, the smaller of the two. It is constantly written about and discussed here in the states. Even for those who are successful in achieving this standard of life, there is often a price to pay.

I recall some years ago being in a bar and having a couple of people who vaguely knew me approach me and begin to tell me that they were jealous and envious of me. They told me that they wish they had it like I did, with all of the homes and cars and money. I stopped them at that point and said to the both of them "Let me ask you a question. Do you both have significant others in your lives?" They both responded that they did. I followed up by asking them if they had children. Between the two of them they had 3 children. I then asked them "When you leave here tonight, are you going home to your families?" They both said yes. I then said "Well, then I envy you. When I leave here tonight, sure, I'll be driving off in my Mercedes, but I'll be driving home alone. And, when I get home, I'll hear the same thing I hear every night upon entering my beautiful, half million dollar home---complete silence." So, I told them, "I actually envy you because, in spite of the fact that you may not have all of the material things that we have learned to treasure in life, you both have the things that are really more important; people who love you, and someone to share your life with." This is actually a true story.

At one time I had 4 homes simultaneously, one of which I was screwed out of by my own mother; another of which my brother has damaged so badly that I would have to take whatever equity I've built up in the home to repair it, and for which I haven't seen rent in many, many months. I have 3 cars, although, as chuckuindy mentioned, I can only drive one at a time. Most of my time is spent juggling maintenance or cleaning appointments between the three. I have 2 boats, one of which has seen the water for a total of 2 hours in the year and a half that I've owned it.

I've come to the realization that although I've come to achieve what we commonly refer to as "The American Dream", there are still the periodic nightmares as well. I probably have more than the average person, and certainly more than I ever imagined I would have. But I now know that in order to have these things I have sacrificed my happiness, peace, and serenity. I have become a slave to these things. I lock myself in my home to hide from people who always seem to want one thing or another (usually money, or something that requires money). There are only 2 instances of reprieve; the time I spend with my children, and the time I spend traveling.

At this point in my life I am working on shedding myself of all of these "things", and opt out of "The American Dream". I often think back to the days when I was earning $6.50 an hour. I didn't have much. I had an old 71 Chevy El Camino, a studio apartment, and a few extra bucks to go out with now and then. But, I was the happiest that I've ever been in my life.

Mr. johne, I'm not disputing what you've said, although I don't believe that the numbers of people who have been able to achieve wealth through the acquisition of material things and find the balance you've mentioned, are as high as you might want to believe. I happen to be one of those people who has not been fortunate enough to find that balance, and simply wanted to offer a different point of view.

 

[jackquontee]

BTW, Chuckuindy, I just wanted to say that I thought your initial reply was one of the best that I've read in response to an OP.

 

[Danny W]

jackquontee - Your money isn't making you unhappy. If chucking it all will propell you into a new world of self discovery, great. But don't kid yourself. You describe a real rocky family history, did your money cause that? I don't think the simple life is the answer (not that there's anything wrong with that). - D

 

[suarezn]

We are obviously generalizing here, as each person has their own life and their own view on what constitute happiness.

I think maybe we should take the different class levels in each country and compare. Granted that income levels are obviously different, so an upper middle class person in The US may be considered rich in The US.

The Rich: Do rich people in The DR live a happier life than the rich in The US? I think this is debateable as The Rich don't really have to worry about money and other things that "normal" people have to worry about, so they can afford to go wherever they like. IMO people in this class live a happier life in The DR, simply because of the freedom to do whatever you want that you have down there.

The Middle Class: This class definitely lives a much happier life in The DR (again if we define happiness by lower lever of stress, friends, etc). A middle class person in The US has to work much harder than in The DR and still cannot do the same kinds of things a middle class Dominican person can such as be able to afford a full time maid to help around the house, which takes away a lot of stress. A middle class older guy does not have a lot of choices in term of the kind of woman he can get as opposed to the same type of guy in The DR. A typical middle class person will have many more friends to hang out with and many more things to do in The DR. In general a lower level of stress I would say.

I consider myself middle class here in The US (upper middle maybe if we base it on income). I own a large house in a nice community, have two newer cars in my garage, etc...however many weekends I want to do something fun and I find myself just ending up going to the movies because there's not much else to do.

Forget about picking up a 21 year old girl at a bar as at my age (36) that would be considered gross and they wouldn't give me the time of day anyway. If I want my car washed, my shoes shined, my dishes washed, etc...I have to do it myself.

I can't hire a full time live in maid with my income as that would be very expensive. I can't even sit on my porch and enjoy a cold one because first of all it's like a frozen tundra out here right now and second that would be illegal...

I can't even paint my house any color I damm well please. I have to conform, conform, conform...

I think AZB is speaking about us when he started this thread and I fully agree with him.

Now for the poor: In general this class is not happy anywhere. Day to day life is definitely easier in The US for this class, but even then I'm not sure that the US poor is "happier" than the Dominican poor. The things that make people in this class "happy" are the intangibles as they don't own many possessions anyhow.

In terms of intangibles The DR wins hands down. I grew up poor in The DR and I can tell you that we weren't unhappy. As a matter of fact I was really happy as a child. We had tons of friends with whom to hang out with, play domino, whatever... Always had nice weather, and were pretty fit as we had to walk everywhere. Time was spent talking away, dancing, etc...The kids had a million other kids to play with. We improvised games out of anything. Here my kids have four separate video game systems and any game you can think of, yet they don't have that many kids to play with. Many weekends my kids spend it inside the house just in front of the TV playing videos, etc...bored to death. My wife and I have to constantly come up with things to do to keep them entertained as there aren't many kids around that they can just go ant play with. Everyone just keeps to themselves.

Sorry about going on a tangent here, but thought I would contribute my two cents as I look out the window into this frozen piece of ice we call Michigan and wish I was down there sipping on a cold one and haning out with friends and family...

 

[jackquontee]

Danny W, some good points. However, the history that you've referred to is not history, it is the here and now.

Additionally, although having money has been great in some ways, yes, it is a huge part of the problem. I could write a book about it. In summary, it would involve a very large family that at one time didn't have a damned thing, but that now finds itself with a great deal of wealth.

I cannot count on one hand the number of times I've been invited to spend a holiday with someone, though everyone knows I'm single and live alone. Conversely, I cannot count the number of times I've been invited to someone's home (for a holiday or otherwise) only to be hit up for some money before I even got in the door.

And, finally, you don't know the number of times I've come close to chucking it all. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, I still like the idea of toilets that flush and lights that turn on when you hit the switch.

 

[suarezn]

Jack: It almost seems to me that you're exactly the kind of person who could live a much happier life by spending as much time in The DR as you can.

Toilets that flush and lights that turn on when you hit the switch? It sounds like you have the means to make this happen in The DR.

Now...your life in The Dr should also be cautious, because if people know you have money they will also try to hit you up for some (and not just your family).

Anyhow, I don't know you personally, but wish you can eventually find that balance in your life you seem to be looking for.

 

[heldengebroed]

I can only judge for myself. I'm a manager and have an appartment and a house in belgium together with a few acres of land. Several months ago i analysed my life... The way it was going i would have to work untill i'm seventy, change my car every 4 years for a bigger one and buy another house every 7 or 8 years and when retired i would earn 1006?/month pension + the rent of the houses i own or i could sell the land i own and the house and take the rent of the appartement to secure myself, with the income from my hobby, 1500$ a month and move to the DR and start all over again the Latin version that is.
I made up my mind...
I'm selling

 

[Dominicanscotti]

Perhaps it is better for AZB to live in the Dominican Republic based on financials. Wonder if it is just as nice if you are not at the top of the Expat food chain. AZB must be talking about Expats living in the DR because he certainly isn't a Dominican, right?

I wonder if all Expats are as happy, as rich and as traveled as he is?

I ran into a woman who has lived here on a fixed income for 6 years who is calling it quits because it isn't as liveable a place in the last 2 years on a 'fixed" income.

So while AZB is an upwardly mobile Expat I doubt that the rest of the Expats living here are doing as well especially with a 32 peso dollar and higher prices in pesos than when the dollar was trading at 48 or better. His statements may pertain to him but I highly doubt that they pertain to the majority of people that have moved to the DR.

 

[AZB]

Jack, suarezn make very valid points. these guy have put my thoughts in much better words than I could think of. i was never a writer and never will be one.
My friends pay as much as 1300 dollars rent in queens for a small apartment. These guys have new cars but they make hefty payments on monthly basis, not to mention the damn insurance. Most people never enter the homes of their neighbors let alone socialize with them. When these guys get time off they drink some beers in their homes, women go to malls and eventually everyone gets up and goes out to eat. All I do is eat when I am in NY. There is nothing much else to do. We guys in our early 40's are too old to walk into just any disco and bar where young folks hang around. We can never hit on a 25 yrs old girl anywhere without calling attention of others. I have offered my friend to only come up with money for airline ticket and I will deal with the rest once he is here, yet he can't take time off to travel. many are too afraid to travel alone without their wives. Wives have so much control on these guys, its sickening.
In DR, if you make make some decent income, you can live like a king. I live in a nice sized house, 3 bedrooms, dinning room (turned into movie theater), living room, kitchen and a huge back yard, even a side yard for BBQ etc, parking for 3 cars and yet, I pay less than 200 dollars / month. Mind you, I live in a nice area. My office is small but thats all I need for now, and my rent is less than 100 dollars. All I am trying to say is that my expenses are way lower here than I would be paying for an equal standard of lifestyle in usa. I drive an old car so I have no high insurance expenses or repair expenses. I will buy a nicer camry or a honda accord soon but I will still keep my old car for visiting friends. it all boils down to working less and worrying less because we don't have to generate too much cash to live well here. Once you buy your furniture, car and have your life stable, then the rest comes in cheap.
AZB

 

[johne]

You didn't go on a tangent..

We are obviously generalizing here, as each person has their own life and their own view on what constitute happiness.

I think maybe we should take the different class levels in each country and compare. Granted that income levels are obviously different, so an upper middle class person in The US may be considered rich in The US.

The Rich: Do rich people in The DR live a happier life than the rich in The US? I think this is debateable as The Rich don't really have to worry about money and other things that "normal" people have to worry about, so they can afford to go wherever they like. IMO people in this class live a happier life in The DR, simply because of the freedom to do whatever you want that you have down there.

The Middle Class: This class definitely lives a much happier life in The DR (again if we define happiness by lower lever of stress, friends, etc). A middle class person in The US has to work much harder than in The DR and still cannot do the same kinds of things a middle class Dominican person can such as be able to afford a full time maid to help around the house, which takes away a lot of stress. A middle class older guy does not have a lot of choices in term of the kind of woman he can get as opposed to the same type of guy in The DR. A typical middle class person will have many more friends to hang out with and many more things to do in The DR. In general a lower level of stress I would say.

I consider myself middle class here in The US (upper middle maybe if we base it on income). I own a large house in a nice community, have two newer cars in my garage, etc...however many weekends I want to do something fun and I find myself just ending up going to the movies because there's not much else to do.

Forget about picking up a 21 year old girl at a bar as at my age (36) that would be considered gross and they wouldn't give me the time of day anyway. If I want my car washed, my shoes shined, my dishes washed, etc...I have to do it myself.

I can't hire a full time live in maid with my income as that would be very expensive. I can't even sit on my porch and enjoy a cold one because first of all it's like a frozen tundra out here right now and second that would be illegal...

I can't even paint my house any color I damm well please. I have to conform, conform, conform...

I think AZB is speaking about us when he started this thread and I fully agree with him.

Now for the poor: In general this class is not happy anywhere. Day to day life is definitely easier in The US for this class, but even then I'm not sure that the US poor is "happier" than the Dominican poor. The things that make people in this class "happy" are the intangibles as they don't own many possessions anyhow.

In terms of intangibles The DR wins hands down. I grew up poor in The DR and I can tell you that we weren't unhappy. As a matter of fact I was really happy as a child. We had tons of friends with whom to hang out with, play domino, whatever... Always had nice weather, and were pretty fit as we had to walk everywhere. Time was spent talking away, dancing, etc...The kids had a million other kids to play with. We improvised games out of anything. Here my kids have four separate video game systems and any game you can think of, yet they don't have that many kids to play with. Many weekends my kids spend it inside the house just in front of the TV playing videos, etc...bored to death. My wife and I have to constantly come up with things to do to keep them entertained as there aren't many kids around that they can just go ant play with. Everyone just keeps to themselves.

Sorry about going on a tangent here, but thought I would contribute my two cents as I look out the window into this frozen piece of ice we call Michigan and wish I was down there sipping on a cold one and haning out with friends and family...

in fact I think you are the only person that stayed on target with the OP tread. We are not here to talk about individual's millions, divorces, giving up wealth so that you can experience no lights for 12 hours a day-no- the tread was" is it better etc...US/DR. I think that you have pointed out very clearly that NOBODY likes to be poor. I remember a tread about a year ago when somebody mentioned how happy all the poor people on the bus or a gua gua where singing. (!) Well. I replied, they were singing because they didnt want to cry. I feel even stronger about this now as I have learned even more about the culture of the DR, and what one does to make there life bearable.

As far as comparisons of classes are concerned I think that it is a very relative thing and it is hard to make comparisions as the culture separates these distinctions too widely.
People tend to interject their opinions solely on their own personal motives, and I understand that, but at the same time I think one must look at where am I now in life and did I make the right decision , should I consider a change, or not. I think AZB OP is a interesting and introspective look at his life and very honest in his questions and observations.
BTW--AZB some of your information as to my financial status and number of properties I own are inaccurate. More on this when you come and visit your family in Queens.

JOHN

 

[johne]

You are welcome

Danny W, some good points. However, the history that you've referred to is not history, it is the here and now.

Additionally, although having money has been great in some ways, yes, it is a huge part of the problem. I could write a book about it. In summary, it would involve a very large family that at one time didn't have a damned thing, but that now finds itself with a great deal of wealth.

I cannot count on one hand the number of times I've been invited to spend a holiday with someone, though everyone knows I'm single and live alone. Conversely, I cannot count the number of times I've been invited to someone's home (for a holiday or otherwise) only to be hit up for some money before I even got in the door.

And, finally, you don't know the number of times I've come close to chucking it all. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on how you look at it, I still like the idea of toilets that flush and lights that turn on when you hit the switch.

to come to my house on Christmas Eve. I have had an open house for about 125 people every year for the past 20 years and I am sure nobody will hit on you for $$$$. If in NY you are more than welcome

JOHN

 

[ze pequeno]

I say.

The expats or professionals transplants from north america and europe, who're in D.R. are probably better off or at least as comfortable as they would be in the home countries. Especially those that are paid u.s.d.

 

[SKY]

What about all the homeless people living in the U.S? There are none in the D.R. that I have ever seen. I see plenty in N.Y. when I visit.

 

[jackquontee]

Jack: It almost seems to me that you're exactly the kind of person who could live a much happier life by spending as much time in The DR as you can.

Toilets that flush and lights that turn on when you hit the switch? It sounds like you have the means to make this happen in The DR.

Now...your life in The Dr should also be cautious, because if people know you have money they will also try to hit you up for some (and not just your family).

Anyhow, I don't know you personally, but wish you can eventually find that balance in your life you seem to be looking for.

Suarezn, you are absolutely correct about being the kind of person who could be happier there in the DR. I have always lived by my instincts, and I sensed the very first time that I ever arrived in the DR that I could be comfortable there. I saw something in the people there that I don't often see in people here in the US. I saw just what AZB alluded to in his post, that, in spite of all that we have in terms of material things here in the US, we are still some of the most unhappiest, miserable people that I've encountered. We spend so much of our time working to acquire all of these "things", and then so much more time, effort, and money cleaning, maintaining, repairing, insuring, and protecting/securing them.

I want to be somewhere where the foundation of life isn't based upon trying to acquire all that you can, and more than you need. I'll get there. Thanks.

 

[jackquontee]

to come to my house on Christmas Eve. I have had an open house for about 125 people every year for the past 20 years and I am sure nobody will hit on you for $$$$. If in NY you are more than welcome

JOHN

John, had this invitation been about 4 years ago, I probably would have accepted. However, I now have two 4 year old sons for whom I will be present so that they can have a Merry Christmas. Believe me, had it not been for them, I would have been celebrating Christmas in the DR, rather than arriving a few days after. Thanks anyway.

 

[ze pequeno]

What about all the homeless people living in the U.S? There are none in the D.R. that I have ever seen. I see plenty in N.Y. when I visit.

You have to take into consideration that we've a population that's over 270 million, so of course there's going to be some homeless in the equation. To some extent, the predicament of american homeless individuals is tied to other societal ills such as drug addiction. Not to mention mental illness etc.......

ze

 

[Mirador]

You have to take into consideration that we've a population that's over 270 million, so of course there's going to be some homeless in the equation. To some extent the predicament of american homeless individuals is tied to other societal ills such as drug addiction. Not to mention mental health issues etc.. Whatever the case, it's a shame that there's homelessness in the richest nation on earth. ze

According to the US Department of Health and Human Services, up to 600,000 men, women, and children go homeless each night in the US. Of course, these are the official statistics, so don't be surprised if the actual figures are actually much higher.

http://aspe.hhs.gov/homeless/index.shtml

 

[chuckuindy]

Final word

To stay on the OP I wish to return to this thread a final time.

Most of my friends are making good money yet they all claim to be simply "making ends meet"

.

Making a good living and having a positive net worth are two different things. You can be worth millions on paper in the US and still have a negative net worth. Mostly we are a nation of spenders not savers. Our wants always exceed our needs. We have no financial discipline. We are plastic people (most of us transparent) living on plastic. (credit cards) We have long lost the family oriented culture and worship the all might dollar.

He is dying to come and visit me, but he never seems to get time off or has money to spend on vacations.

The chances are he never will. Regardless of his desires he is trapped, taking a step back financially is not the American way.

Whats the hell is he doing with a 50 yrs old woman?

We have been legislated in to believing that this is normal. Directed by church and state to act and behave within narrow guidelines. Somehow we have forgotten that the Roman Empire survived for 1000 years without regard to social and sexual behavior.

The other friend of mine has to hold 2 jobs (always working), his wife has a full time job and they both leave home when its dark and come home when its dark.

A recent survey I read said that American’s who are required to work a normal 40hr. work week give an extra 10hrs. per week to their employers. Most employees replied that they felt this was necessary for job security.

If this trend keeps up, I am afraid that by the time many folks turn 65 and retired, they will be either dead or broke.

If not dead or broke many will rely on family or government assistance. Even with US Social Security and Medicaid, it is impossible for many senior citizens meet their basic need of housing, medications and food.

I will go out tonight and I will see plenty of folks drinking dancing and laughing the night away.

You can also find this in the US. The difference is that their tabs are being put on a credit card which will cost them between 7 to 25% more than if they were Dominicans paying in hard earned pesos.

Many end up in motels with a 23 yrs old santiaguera, as opposed to a 50 plus yrs old granny.

One can find 23yo women to escort them to a motel here at a cost of around $200 per hr. or spend quality time with a 50 plus granny for around $40 per hr. depending on the cost of dinner, drinks and transportation.

I guess I have become so lazy living here that I will never be able to get used to working like a machine

There is no doubt that both the US and the Dominican Republic have their advantages and disadvantages. Having seen your quality of life, if I were you, I would continue to live in the DR and visit the US.

In summary there is no real way to tell where life is better. It all becomes a matter of personal choice.

Chuckuindy

 

[NALs]

What is the big issue of not having lights 24/7 in DR? the solution is so simple: just get a damn inverter with 8 batteries and your problem is solved. I never have a black out in my house (maybe onces in 2 yrs when the blackouts last 12 plus hrs). I really don't care about black outs as long as my computer and my TV stays on. My inverter is the best investment that I had made in this country.
You complain about water shortages? Big deal, solution: get a huge water tank on the roof and your problem is solved for life.
Gasoline is rationed? fill up the tank and you are set for a few days.
Every problem in DR has solutions and often times, the solution is simple and a life time fix.
We have advanced telecommunication systen. DSL was here way earlier than many US cities. We have major airports in every major city, major resorts and sun all year round. Some people think we live in a 3rd world country. You want to see a 3rd world country, try visiting Haiti, you don't even have to go to rwanda to see the real poverty. Its right next door to us.
Please do not give me this 24/7 lights lame excuse.
AZB

You want to know what is the issue here, AZB?

There are multiple types of Dominican Republic.

Most people judge this country by one type, totally ignore and sometimes reject the existence of the other types.

This is why they don't "get" what you are describing.

When they picture the Dominican Republic, all they picture in their heads are cottages and tiny homes of wood. They never picture neighborhoods of decent to high quality homes in settings that could be anywhere in suburban USA, but instead is in Dominicana.

They picture cramped apartments with shabby construction, but never brand new luxurious apartments with all the comforts the world has to offer, from Sub Zero refrigerators, to central air conditioning, to satelite television, to even marble counter tops in your master bathroom.

They only picture playing dominos and drinking Presidente as a night time past time here. They never imagine the other pasts times available in this country, such as movie theaters, multi-ethnic restaurants, opera, ballet, fine arts museums, exciting baseball games, golfing, parasailing, scuba diving, dancing til dawn, bowling, watching a horse race, car racing, motor cross, playing polo, the list goes on and on.

They only picture in their minds the poor end, and even in the poor end, they seem to know how to have a good time. Just pass by any popular "discoteca" or "car wash" and even though its the hang outs of poor Dominicans, exciting music, lots of laughs, and one heck of a good time they seem to be getting out of that very moment in their life.

When it comes to shopping, they think the only places to buy food are at the colmados and pulperias. Never in a million years could they ever equate Dominican Republic with Carrefours, Super Mercados Nacional, Price Mart, Jumbo, and other large modern air conditioned and spacious supermarkets that carry everything, from Presidentes to Heinz Ketchup to even Ocean Spray juices!

Want a big mac? Readily available. Want pizza hut? Follow the trail. Want delicious high quality Japanese cuisine? Must I say Samurai. Whatever you want is available in this Dominican Republic many can't seem to get a grips with.

There is more to this country than meets the eyes, and this is what many are missing.

They love to say, but most people in DR don't live like that! But, of course, they forget to compare and notice that today around 40% of the population of this country does lives a middle class to upper class lifestyle. Check all the data of this country and I dare anyone to find any other time when more than 40% of Dominicans lived as such!

For much of this country's existence a tiny 5% lived anything considered decent, today its 40%! Why? Economic growth, greater opportunity, forward mobility. And to think that only 40 years ago, this country did not even had a middle class to speak of!

The thing is this: people complain until they see the results. The problem is that the results are appearing one step at a time, but people want things to change over night and that is not how anything in life actually works.

Everything takes time, so far this country has done very well. We got examples all around our country of how much things have improved, from pockets of prosperity appearing in places no one ever thought possible. From Santo Domingo to Santiago, from San Francisco to Puerto Plata, from Higuey to San Pedro, and plenty of places in between a vibrant and pulsating new middle class has been emerging. But, no body notices that.

We also got neighboring countries that have been around during this period of ever increasing Dominican prosperity. Why have those countries not gained as much as we have? Why have some neighboring countries lost their middle classes, while we are managing to increase and create ours from scratch?

The answers are there, for anyone willing to accept them!

That is what many fail to see!

-NAL