BREAKING NEWS from JUAN DOLIO!

[macocael]

I have to tell you that there is a huge gap here in Kuwait between the rich and the poor, yet we do NOT have the crime. There is hardly any crime here at all. I don't worry. The police force are effective, swift and efficient. You bring in drugs=you will hang. Plain and simple. Insurgency, round everyone up, take them to jail and sort them out in due time. No child kidnappings, purse snatching, murders as a rule. Yet, the police are not in your face either. If you don't want to wear a seat belt--that is your choice. I think the police force are one of the main reasons for low crime rate we enjoy here. Much of the same follows true in Bahrain, Dubai, Qatar and Oman. Over 50% of the population here is from expats. Oh, when I ordered pizza the other day and gave the guy a 1KD (about 3 USD tip), he came back downstairs to return it to me and told me I overpaid him. Can't beat that! There is a trust here. I like that.
I really wanted to move to the area but I am not sure I want to give up all this. I know DR is a beautiful country, but.....

Lynne

1. Who comprises the poor there?
2. Kuwait did not have Trujillo and Johnny Abbas
3. How much are your police paid?
4. What are govt expenditures in general on social controls? Kuwait has oil money which it spends I imagine on keeping the place going. we do not.
5. Strong arm police tactics such as you mention keep the expats safe, but is this the best way to do things? Someone once said, "people aren?t supposed to be afraid of their governments, governments are supposed to be afraid of their people." We had such tactics too, and the influence of those tactics a couple generations later is part of the problem now.

Just a few points to draw out the differences between the two contexts.

 

[HOWMAR]

Time to take a deep breath.

The OP originally said "regulars" won't come back due to the current violence. The three latest incidents of violence related on this site included a Dominican young man killed by the police in a case of mistaken identity, a Dominican lawyer executed and not robbed in his home, and a Dominican businessman also executed and not robbed in his home. I don't see what concerns the tourist or expat has based on these recent incidents. Minor street crime has always and will always be a concern though. But petty theives are not murderers.

 

[mountainfrog]

Churchgoers Among the Worst?

Just a few points to draw out the differences between the two contexts.

These are certainly true.

I'd like to add the role of religion.
Although I would not want to live in an islamic society (I did visit) it seems that strong islamic ethics govern daily life there.
Religious ethical influence is hardly felt here and subsequently critisized by church leaders and some (hypocratical ?) politicians.

m'frog

 

[MommC]

No Mirador, despite your smart ass remarks, it wasn't the Sicilian Mafia either!

Aren’t we flogging a dead horse here? The breaking news from Juan Dolio is that the Sicilian Mafia was behind the killing....

-

The Dominican Mafia most likely....

As to my remarks about him being warned, that wasn't mentioned in my original post.

It was mentioned in the subsequent post (as was the cheque that was found as noted in the news report) as a most likely motive for the shooting. It came from personal knowledge (we frequently conversed with Rafael and even had dinner with him on Saturday night as our 'last' supper in Juan Dolio for this trip!).

Also known is that a lot of people in the area are owned money by a certain person (whose name was most likely on that cheque) with whom they invested hundreds of thousand of dollars.

Yes Mirador.....we knew him well and he lived in the same complex that our apartment is in!

Several years ago the only crime here you heard about (or were a victim of - yes I've been mugged walking down the street in JD) were purse or jewelry snatchings.

A couple of years ago house robberies and house invasions started happening.

This year in JD (remember our little town of a couple thousand inhabitants) has endured house robberies, house invasions, holdups at gunpoint, armed robberies in restaurants and cafeterias', auto thefts and break-ins and now a blatant murder of local businessman who was an honest, hard working expat!

This is NOT an inner city area we're talking about here!!

Do we have police protection?? NO! They don't even answer the phone most of the time!

Do the police enforce the law? NO! Point in fact, the disco, colmado, cervezera and tipico across the street that blare loud music 24/7.

Are the people trying to change things? YES

We have had delegations visit the local station. We have had delegations go to San Pedro and Santo Domingo to the appropriate offices to complain. We have circulated petitions to turn over to the proper authorities.

Have things changed?? YES - IT"S GETTING WORSE!!!

Are we concerned?? Those of us that LIVE here and not just vacation for two weeks in an AI? You bet!!

Are some of us deciding NOT to return?? Of Course! We're not brain dead....no -one wants to risk their life in an unstable, unsafe area.

Is the DR becoming an unstable, unsafe area? In my humble opinion- undoubtably!

I've been coming to the island for the winter since 1990 and since the hippo's reign things have gone downhill at a remarkable rate. Co-incidence? Maybe but not likely.

Drugs were no where to be found in the area before the camposino came to power - now they're all over the area and are readily found in the resorts.

The local fisherman (anywhere on the south coast) receive phone calls from generals telling them when to go 'fishing'. Many of them (the fishermen) are now 'retired' and living a life of leisure.

Point in fact......I had a problem this year and went to the local police station to report it. I was told I had to go to San Pedro. Would most tourists know where to go or how to get there? NO! Would they bother? Not if they were only on vacation for a short period of time and didn't want to waste three to four days of their vacation for a fairly minor 'annoyance'.

Chris had it right.....things are hitting too close to home and nothing seems to concern the powers that be enough for them to take action.

I remember hearing about the armed resort invasions (one at the resort we stayed at the very first time we came to the island) and am wondering how long before we hear about them again.

Already bus loads of tourists are being hi-jacked on their way to the resorts from the airports (several this year while we were there).

Am I being paranoid?? No......just VERY observant!

Now I ask you.....what if you had been in that apartment when the shooting took place?? Would you be alive to talk about it and make snide comments today???

Think about it!!

 

[Mirador]

My suggestion of 'Sicilian mafia' participation in this heinous crime was based on information I got from my source ( information that is only as good/bad as that same source, which I implicitly pointed out that it was questionable (..."ex tonton macoute")) Notwithstanding, another source has concurred with the first, indicating that this is the official (police) line of investigation...

If nothing comes about, and the culprits remain unidentified, feel free to suspect police/military involvement...

-

 

[Snuffy]

Coming from you MommC I have to sit down. Much worse than I was aware of.
Be very careful out there.

 

[Chris]

Reminds me of the prevailing wisdom that says the DR usually tries to point a finger to someone else. Never do we here locally really accept responsibility for our own state. Obviously it cannot be a Dominican problem. Surely it has to a 'sicilian mafia' problem. I smell something - a big fat rat.

My suggestion of 'Sicilian mafia' participation in this heinous crime was based on information I got from my source ( information that is only as good/bad as that same source, which I implicitly pointed out that it was questionable (..."ex tonton macoute")) Notwithstanding, another source has concurred with the first, indicating that this is the official (police) line of investigation...

If nothing comes about, and the culprits remain unidentified, feel free to suspect police/military involvement...

-

 

[NALs]

Reminds me of the prevailing wisdom that says the DR usually tries to point a finger to someone else. Never do we here locally really accept responsibility for our own state. Obviously it cannot be a Dominican problem. Surely it has to a 'sicilian mafia' problem. I smell something - a big fat rat.

Not to go off course, but it's the same thing everywhere in the world.

I don't get why all you expats (well, not all) always mention the "Dominicans blame everyone else" as if in your countries people don't do that as well.

Guess what? Most Americans believe crime comes from abroad! They believe it's the Italian, Russian, Philipino, and Mexican mafias that has taken over inner cities across the country.

Of course, despite deportations since 1996, it does not explains why there is an upsurge in crime in the SUBURBS which are overwhelmingly white American born people, and why the suburbs are the place of many other anti-social activity which actually dwarfs inner cities (which tend to be non-white and foreign born), especially when it's regarding illicit drug consumption, robbery, etc.

Everything expats write about on this website complaining about the DR (the suppose blame game, that you need to know people in order to progress, etc etc) I see and hear Americans saying the same thing all the times of the USA.

Which begs the question: Why do expats (I am referring to American expats, but I suppose the same can be said of expats from other places) feel so confident in making their statements of Dominicans, when their own countries have those same issues?!

For goodness sakes!:tired:

Ok, back to topic now.

-NALs

 

[svmher]

There are poor people here--dirt poor who live in tents. There are many of them hence a huge discrepancy between rich and poor.
The police are not paid a lot. I don't know exactly how much but it is not lucrative by any means.
I am not afraid of the police by any means. I have had 2 car accidents and was treated fairly and repectfully. I am sure the police are interested in protecting their own contrymen as much as they are the expats.
I don't know how much is spent on govt. programs.
I do know it is safe here. I can go anywhere. I am treated with respect by the authorities. I can freely practice my religion here. My kids participate in Muslim holidays and they do in ours at school.
Kuwait does have oil. The country is also only about 70 years old.
I do know that the poor do not steal. They do not justify stealing based on their poverty.
I think the religion does play a positive part in the society more than anything else.
My kids can take a cab without me. My teenager wrote the cab driver an "IOU" note. Now, I know the guy is dirt poor. What can be said about that?
I am not in anyway putting DR down. I am just saying it is a beautiful country from what I can tell and I hate to see this sort of thing happening. It hurts everyone there.
Lynne

 

[HOWMAR]

Of course, despite deportations since 1996, it does not explains why there is an upsurge in crime in the SUBURBS which are overwhelmingly white American born people, and why the suburbs are the place of many other anti-social activity which actually dwarfs inner cities (which tend to be non-white and foreign born), especially when it's regarding illicit drug consumption, robbery, etc.
-NALs

Do you ever read, and actually believe what you write? Firstly, the crime rate is down since 1996. Secondly, the inner cities are still the mecca of anti-social activities, compared to the suburbs.

 

[MrMike]

There are poor people here--dirt poor who live in tents. There are many of them hence a huge discrepancy between rich and poor.
The police are not paid a lot. I don't know exactly how much but it is not lucrative by any means.
I am not afraid of the police by any means. I have had 2 car accidents and was treated fairly and repectfully. I am sure the police are interested in protecting their own contrymen as much as they are the expats.
I don't know how much is spent on govt. programs.
I do know it is safe here. I can go anywhere. I am treated with respect by the authorities. I can freely practice my religion here. My kids participate in Muslim holidays and they do in ours at school.
Kuwait does have oil. The country is also only about 70 years old.
I do know that the poor do not steal. They do not justify stealing based on their poverty.
I think the religion does play a positive part in the society more than anything else.
My kids can take a cab without me. My teenager wrote the cab driver an "IOU" note. Now, I know the guy is dirt poor. What can be said about that?
I am not in anyway putting DR down. I am just saying it is a beautiful country from what I can tell and I hate to see this sort of thing happening. It hurts everyone there.
Lynne

Well if you have amputation and hanging for misdemeanors it stands to reason the crime rate will be lower, but most of us will not accept that quality of life or willingly give up our freedom just for a lower crime rate.

 

[Chris]

Which begs the question: Why do expats (I am referring to American expats, but I suppose the same can be said of expats from other places) feel so confident in making their statements of Dominicans, when their own countries have those same issues?!
-NALs

Simple ... because we live here and this is home. I may have another country, but this is my country now. It is not an expat / Dominican issue. It is a safety of people issue. I think our Dominican neighbors are even more aware than what we are and will soon tell us if they feel we are affecting the overall safety of the neighborhood with our practices. Crime in my eyes is not less serious if my Dominican neighbors are threatened, and in their eyes, crime is not less serious if their extranjero neighbors are threatened. Heard of community Nals? .. mostly we have one, and in our neighborhood we look out for one another. The chilean family, the german fellow, the dominican families and our family.

I think you cheapen the seriousness of the issue and you are trying to slither out of looking at the realities by trying to place this in an extranjero / Dominican context. At least with me, and I dare say a few others as well, you'll not get far down that path.

The DR1 is also a community and we talk here about issues that affect all in order to help others, and share our experiences and have some fun. Many of my friends I met through the DR1 and many I did not. But the board is part of my social interaction and my social circle.

 

[trina]

Honestly, I cannot understand how anyone can deny or downplay the seriousness of the rise in crime in the DR. It speaks volumes when the driver of a car keeps going upon hitting AND KILLING a pedestrian b/c he fears the threat to his life due to retribution from the victim's family. How does that become the norm of rational thinking? People fear hiring ceranos because that same cerano now holds a position of misguided trust, and is often the perpetrator in burglarizing and perhaps killing them. Find all the examples you like from other countries, but as far as I know, these examples are not the norm in other parts of the world.

 

[svmher]

They don't amputate! I thought that too before I came here. Hanging is reserved for those who like to bring in Heroin not something like pot. There isn't anything I can't do here that I didn't do in the states. It is my lifestyle. I feel as though I have more freedom here. I am free to do things without fear.

I am in no way intending to put down DR. I am in no way trying to be disrespectful. I am concerned about what I am reading and stated that I am not sure I want to give up the safety I have here even though I think I would really love DR. The culture, landscape etc. which I have read about is very appealing to me. If I didn't have children I might not be as nervous. I hope my comments are not taken the wrong way. I just feel it is a shame the country of DR has to deal with these issues.
I am thankful to the forum though or I wouldn't be as informed as I am.

Lynne

 

[mountainfrog]

No tengo la culpa.

... why all you expats (well, not all) always mention the "Dominicans blame everyone else"....

Maybe it's because they know and have experienced many times that almost every time some mishap happens the first sentence is:
"No tengo la culpa"
notwithstanding the obvious blame, guilt or responsibility.

I have even clashed with my wife about this because she so helped the children in the most obvious cases of their wrongdoings.
So I think it's even an educational problem.

I know that there are explanations for attitude but it's difficult to accept that the knife is the culprit and not the one who uses it....

m'frog

 

[Snuffy]

Solutions: Do you believe that better trained and better equipped security personnel would sell here? For example, a security guard with a gun he knows how to use and a big rottweiller at his side. Also, adequate communication devices to call for backup. Would that sell in areas where expats live...such as Sosua, Juan Dolio, etc. Seems like in the moment of crisis it is nice to have someone you can depend on. That is what it is like here....you don't feel like you can depend on the police. You are on your own. I'm just throwing some ideas out there. Bored at home today.

 

[mountainfrog]

Payments Welcome

Solutions: Do you believe that better trained and better equipped security personnel would sell here?

Sure.
The question is "To whom?"
You pay monthly for their service.
Somebody comes up and pays him a few hundreds on the spot for all he knows about you and your habits and schedules...

m'frog

 

[miguel]

What!

Reminds me of the prevailing wisdom that says the DR usually tries to point a finger to someone else. Never do we here locally really accept responsibility for our own state. Obviously it cannot be a Dominican problem. Surely it has to a 'sicilian mafia' problem. I smell something - a big fat rat.

Haven't you noticed by now that to SOME Dominicans, it's ALWAYS someone else who did the wrong thing.

SOME rather blame someone else instead of finding a solution for their problems.

Crimes in the Dominican Republic, done by Dominicans, were "alive and well" WAYYYYYY BEFORE the expats population was so big/large.

I try to be realistic and as such, just because I am Dominican, does not mean that I will turn a "blind eye" to a problem that have been affecting the country for generations and it's not about to change any time soon. Some years the crime rate would go down, but it's a known fact that even if if goes down, it has the potential to go up again. It has been happening for generations.

All I have heard about Rafaele is that he was a nice man. Other than that, whomever killed him, Dominican, Italian or someone from Mars, eventually will have to answer for this senseless crime. Either to the right authorities or to the "Man up there".

 

[Chris]

I was trying to be sarcastic Miguel

 

[macocael]

Lynne, dont worry we , or at least I, dont think you are putting down DR, and DR deserves the criticism as the situation has gotten worse. Your observations are valid and interesting. Btw, this thread might give the wrong impression, because in fact much of what you describe (the i.o.u, going about safely, the children being safe and so on) certainly matches our daily life. My daughter is happy, safe, strangers as well as friends and family look out for her, people are friendly and warm, you can in fact get informal credit in a pinch, people are often very trusting, and so on. And religion plays a role here, Catholicism, and Evangelicalism to an even greater extent.

What we have is a cultural legacy that Kuwait, a relatively new country, does not, and we are still wrestling with that, and Hipolito didnt help matters. This same social and economic breakdown occurred when the PRD came to power in the 70s.

Chris, I am with you. I have been talking about the crime ever since I got on this board, and it has nothing to do with expats' sudden fears that now they are being victimized. "Delincuencia" is the biggest topic in the barrios, in the conchos, at the colmados. I myself am surrounded by mostly Dominicans, but we have two Germans in the apt complex, an Italian, myself and a few Dominican Yorks. All of us have witnessed incidents here and nearby and are concerned. We form a community here, without a doubt. we live here. we are not visiting. Anyway it has gotten tiresome. I myself when I work in the colonial zone, now have to bring someone with me to be sure that no thieves on mot?s try to grab my camera in the middle of taking a shot. It is ludicrous.

The police here are paid only 3000 pesos mensual, I believe. And despite the low pay and high corruption, I have been impressed by the ones I have met who genuinely want to catch these guys and sometimes do. On the other hand, when my own place was almost broken into, the intent being foiled as I happened to have come home early that day and caught them at it, the cop told me point blank: carry a pistol and shoot the bastards. Actually they caught those thieves, funny enough, because when my wife went to fill out the complaint at the local Destacamento, she happened to see the three delinquents hanging right there on the corner. She informed the cops, they ran out and caught them!

MommC, I entirely sympathize with you, and I didnt mean to suggest that poverty was the answer and thus deflect the topic from the immediate causes that you clearly outlined. Poverty, however, is undeniably a factor in the general trend we are witnessing. The barrios calientes like Cristo Rey are little crime factories. Anyway, I hope that you will not abandon this life you have made for yourself and will fight to keep it. And I hope things will get better for you.