Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence

[MrMike]

self defense?

My Dominican wife beats me frequently, I had to take her to the emergency room the other night beause she missed and hit the wall, breaking her hand. I wonder how much of the domestic violence against women is self-defense?

I've lived in many countries and find Dominican men comparatively passive and peaceful, but the women by contrast seem a bit more violent than I'm used to.

 

[Amber]

well..

Humans are a product of a combination of genetic predispositions and the environment in which they develop. One cannot divorce oneslf from the situations that helped shape our personalities any more than one can erase a genetic pattern inherited. But as with the nonexistence of destiny, we have the capacity to remold any destructive behavior, thereby breaking self destructive cycles. Educating people to take responsibility for their actions is more productive than saying, well.. ?She-He came fom an abusive home, so that is all he knows..?
BTW women do not preffer a certain type of male just as much as men don?t all preffer a cetain type of woman. Just look around you, barring the ones who seek advantages in a relation over genuine feeling, you will not be able to state a pefference for either sex.
Now time to go look at some hunks.

Amber

 

[leja]

purely about the theory?social Darwinism, behavioral ecology, whatever...

I haven?t read Wrangham?s book so I can?t comment on that specifically, but I do think that the behavioral ecology theory is an interesting one that holds some merit (as well as many limitations). From my knowledge (which is admittedly limited in this area), the core concept of the theory is that all of our behavior logically stems from our instinctive desire to pass our genes on to the next generation (and to actually have these genes ? aka children ? survive). So, even just from a purely intellectual (or pseudo-intellectual if you so choose ) point of view (not a moral one), I don?t see how seriously hurting or killing the mother of one?s children would help insure the survival of one?s genes (children).

From what I understand, the theory states that while both male and female behavior is centered around delivering one?s own genes into the next generation, males and females tend to have different default strategies when it comes to actually doing this (especially in lactating mammals) ? while the parent with the larger gamete (egg=female) tends to focus her energy on her offspring?s day to day care and survival, the parent with the smaller gamete (sperm=male) tends to focus on acquiring resources to help ensure the survival of his children and to attract future mates as well as on diversifying the genes of his offspring by breeding as frequently and with as many different partners as possible given that he also wants his children to actually survive ? he doesn?t want to have more than the particular number of children his resources can provide for.

So, assuming for a moment that this theory is 100% true, then a father seriously hurting or killing his children?s primary caretaker (theoretically their mother) would presumably lessen the children?s likelihood of survival, right? So it would go against the theory?s core concept. The argument could probably be made, though, that using force to ensure a mate?s monogamy (that the energy a male spends on providing for children is really being spent on his genes, not some other guy's) would be inline with the behavioral ecology theory. But theories are just theories, and although they can sometimes help us understand large, abstract patterns, we are creatures with emotions, sometimes morals, and hopefully enough compassion and personal accountability to not condone one?s own or other?s violent behavior by excusing it as part of his (or her) ?nature.? I believe we?re very much capable of intelligent decision-making, foresight, and self-control.

Also according to the behavioral ecology theory (and my understanding of it), males tend to attract women (who, importantly, are the ones responsible for mate selection) by flaunting resources/power/traits that demonstrate the male?s ability to help ensure the survival of her and her future children. Depending on the particular society (the threats to and needs of mother & children) these resources/power/traits could translate into either physical strength (when there are physical dangers present), financial power, social status/clout, etc. So in this sense, a physically strong (aka violent?) man could be seen as a preferable mate to a physically weak man, but this would only hold true in societies where men may have to physically protect their wives (not beat/kill their wives, mind you) and children from physical dangers. We could definitely play with trying this part of the theory (about men trying to attract women through flaunting traits/resources) onto Dominican culture and most other cultures, including my own. Why do some men choose to ?wear? their wealth? Maybe this is a piece of the answer. But probably just a piece.

Golo, have you actually read Wrangham?s book? I don?t mean that as a jab, I?m just wondering if you could explain how he managed to connect wife beating/killing to this theory.

So, I think that wife beating/killing in the Dominican Republic and elsewhere is certainly about something very different from gene survival and so doesn?t logically fit into the behavioral ecology theory. But, of course, I could be wrong ? any thoughts?

~Leja (I?m back again and sadly just as verbose) :speechles

 

[Pib]

Humans are not necessarily obliged to follow their urges. Education and self-restraint are aspects that we all (almost all) possess. For all the pressure that nature can put on us we still take pain and wait a lot of time to find a bathroom instead of just taking a crap on a busy street. This behavior, as the author of the book indicates, comes from socializing, learning what is acceptable in our particular society and having been taught self-restraint in our younger years.

The author has indicated that both in the human and in the primate world there are examples of societies that were almost free of violence, which proves that a bunch of hormones and a few genes do not have to dictate our actions. Changing the view of our society on violence is the key to maybe not eliminating violence altogether but rather make it a rare occurrence. We must make aggressive people outcasts of society, until we get rid of the concealed admiration for violent people (we are talking about gratuitous violence here) that some people show (even in this same thread) we won't make it work. We may have inherited certain tendencies from our ancestors, but we are not apes so whatever tendencies we have do not justify our behaviour.

 

[Arve]

Now..

Now... Theories are never true or false but are to be judged on
degrees of usefullness, but I think the theory here is a pretty
good one.

I'm one of these fairly nice, docile, shy, immature, insecure, quiet,
pretty insignificant and broke type of fellows.. And
I must, somewhat reluctantly, admit that I couldn't pull to save
my life.

Furthermore, as I've been in almost 20 countries so far, and as this sad state of affairs has proved itself in all of these countries, it's fair to assume it's not a cultural phenomenon but a natural one. If I hadn't been sexually satisfied by watching the Premierleague I would have been in a bigger emotional mess than I am already I suppose.

So I can't but nod my head to social darwinism on this topic, no
matter how repugnant and unfortunate ( for me ) I find it.

In DR I'm usually swarmed by native girls, mainly because of my
blue eyes, but that never really last very long and I'm usually
forced to move around to keep the effect up.

Too bad, but that's life.

 

[Golo100]

I'm staying away from the fracas

And I'm not going to take the bait from OwnRules, nor do I want to intimidate him or bring the bad boys against him or her.

But some people believe I just bring things up for the hell of it, or because I just ran into an internet source and was looking for an argument. No. This is hot news in DR this whole week. There seems to be an ongoing debate in all radio and TV shows about women's rights, wife beating, theories, and so on. Wranghams' book was one of the books going around and creating a controversy. I am sorry if many of you do not keep up with the Dominican press and media. But I just get involved with issues related to DR or the world, when it affects us.

This week thousands of women are projected to be released from prison in honor of women's week. There seems to be a debate as to wether or not in that whole contingent, some harden criminals will be released using this worthy cause.

I, for one, believe all women who have not killed children or stolen major amounts of money should be released. Most of the women are in for drug charges. They owe their jail to the men they were involved with. If they had not been involved with the gorillas they would have been just nice girls. So release them all. We need more women in the streets. The germans and Italians are leaving us without women. At least 1 woman a minute is leaving for Italy and Germany with a desperate old fart bored with his fat smelly wife. While I dont blame them(that's how good our chicks are in bed...and they smell so gooood!) we need to reproduce them faster. So keeping them in jail to get pregnant by chopo guards is not my theory of evolution. Let the "right" boys give them sausage!!!

There is also a new law that may set back women's rights, which I don't believe will pass, but just the thought of it makes me believe the gorillas are getting worst. This law basicly proposes "no fault violence". It is a negative women's right issue. In other words it simply says that violence is an equal opportunity thing and that both men and women may abuse each other at their own risk, because there is no macho abuse and that abuse has no gender. This is dangerous, specially for women who are now being used as punching bags by gorillas at home.

Dominican men(gorillas at heart) do not need more incentive to beat their women. We got enough incentive just catching them playing the same games we play. We don't need an extra law to support us. Let us be gorillas at our own risk. We know when we have to spray them with "acido del diablo" or place a few whole in their bodies with a "saca higado" or a "chilena". Many of us are even ready to die for our honor. Notice that most men suicides follow the homicide of their wife or girlfriend. Us gorillas don't need protection from an equal rights law. Let us take our chances.

So, can you figure me out now? On the one hand, I want women to be free and have their rights, on the other hand let boys be boys, and if they like to stay in Najayo for 30 years, so be it. Najayo is not such a bad place anyway.

TW

 

[Criss Colon]

"Beating-up" another ape" is not to be taken literally!

"Insert" "Dominate" for "beat-up"! In today's Western Society,there are many "ways" to dominate another male in the eyes of a woman.Physical presence(size & strength),athletic ability,"Looks"intellect/intelligence,financial,social,political power,maturity,and probably MOST important,Weight!(Women hate "skinny" guys!) We must also decide if the woman is only looking to get laid,or is looking to get married.Is she looking to get pregnant,or just have an orgasm?

A woman looking for a "Life's Partner",someone to be the father of her children, may not choose the same guy she would at "Spring Break" when she just wants some sex! Income potencial is important in a husband,not in a "One-Night-Stand"!(I really wanted to say,"in a "Sanki",but I didn't!)

Same is true,to some extent, for men.We are not as interested in income potential as women .Some people will have sex with a person of a different race,but would not want to father,or give birth to, a "Mixed Race" child.In most societies, women want to marry "UP",men want to marry "beauty"!

Physical violence is not needed to dominate the "apes" of today! It is still a "tactic" for some,but it is more self-destructive than the more "civilized" means. Woman today are drawn to men who can "dominate" on the athelitic field,todays "Controlled Combat".

To defeat the other "apes" today,a real man must play by "Societies' Rule, even though there are still some un-evolved "apes" out ther who want to operate under their "Own Rules"!!!
Cris Colonirate:

 

[Dominican Babe]

Income potencial is important in a husband,not in a "One-Night-Stand"!(I really wanted to say,"in a "Sanki",but I didn't!)

Well done Criss, I'm impressed - I didn't think you would ever be able to hold back!!

 

[Golo100]

Another gorilla broke lose

Just as we are posting, and on the same day women are marching in Santiago and many women organizations are meeting to plan strategies to deal with violence by the apes, Ultima Hora is just pasting in its first page "MATA A SU NOVIA Y SE SUICIDA".

Although the details are not in, it has been reported that this crime took place in the middle class neighborhood of El Portal.

But there is little women can do about this. They can scream all they want and congress legislate all they want, but this year will end up as a record breaker for women murdered by their partners. The only thing that can stop this is a "preventive strike" by abused women. Kill the guys before they kill you and take a few years in Najayo. Jail sentences are not going to stop jealous apes. Take my word for it and understand Dominican men.

If you don't want to get a bullet hole in your head, don't go out with Dominican apes. It's that simple. But I don't think they will take my advice. Dominican women just love "apes" and their strong arms tactics.

TW

TW

 

[AnnaC]

Larry any personal poems please send an email if you put them on my threads they will be deleted!

 

[kjdrga]

This was my cousin-in-law

Just as we are posting, and on the same day women are marching in Santiago and many women organizations are meeting to plan strategies to deal with violence by the apes, Ultima Hora is just pasting in its first page "MATA A SU NOVIA Y SE SUICIDA".

Although the details are not in, it has been reported that this crime took place in the middle class neighborhood of El Portal.

Golo, thank you for posting this. If anyone come across any articles about this murder/suicide I would appreciate if someone could cut them out and scan them for me.

Grubel was my cousin-in-law. He and Lucia were together for many years and he had told another family member months ago that if she ever thought of leaving him he would kill her and himself. Well he did it.

She was apparently seeing someone who also worked at the airport and Grubel had tried to get her to come back to him.

By the way no this was not a middle class crime. Grubel was broke, his life over the years had slowly become one that was full of depression. He used to be loaded thanks to those in NY who sent money home everyday. He loved this woman. Had for years. It just so happens he killed her in a middle class area, but he actually live in San Isidro with a cousin.

I honestly can say that mental illness runs in his family. I only wish there was better education in the DR on how to treat illnesses such as depression.

 

[AnnaC]

kjdrga
My condulences to you and your family!

 

[jose?to]

Debs...

Now, on the topic of depression, we don't know much in the DR. You often hear people say, "Muchacho, olv?date de esa vaina. Un clavo saca a otro clavo." And you also hear people say that those that announce their intentions to commit suicide, will rarely do it. But that's not so; they will at least attempt it. I know. If people would only listen, rather than dismiss it...

-Jose?to

 

[kjdrga]

jose

I can only tell you that when I lived in a rural small village for 2 years and heard and listens to people stories, whether it been happy or sad. There is an amount of oppression that you notice. The government really doesn't care about them and they know that. The government promises to buy there crops and then they either do it fiao and promise to pay or buy it for pesitos. They have nothing, they live in substandard conditions, no running water, no luz, over crowded use of latrines.

Not too long after I left that village a 13 year old hung herself. She said she wasn't loved. Later that year, her father's other daughter jumps off a bridge into rio ozama with her infant daughter. Now Grubel takes his own life.

What has the family pissed is the fact that he had to kill Lucia. They say he is a coward for killing himself over a girl, he should have just found another one, like Lucia had told him about a month ago.

I think until there is an educational campaign done through out the impoverished areas and people actually care about depression and know the signs and syptoms and that it is treatable this will always go one. It's hard enough to get people in "first world" countries to pay attention to it.

I just wish there could be a break in all this meaningless death that goes on in my littlfe village. People have had very little time to heal from one reso to another.

 

[Criss Colon]

Come on, I think this thred can live!

Give it a chance please! CCCCCCCCCCCCCCccc

 

[jose?to]

kjdrga...

Every time I hear about someone being depressed, it pains me. And when they commit suicide, they get the "coward" label. Far from the truth. I know. Depression is hard to explain. Most people will not understand unless they've experienced it. In the D.R., it's still looked at as being "weak" and/or "loco". Some sufferers will not reach out for fear of being labeled. Another fact is that the propensity to suffer from depression could be do to heredity. Then you hear people say, "En esa familia todos son locos."

Now, while some may have inherited this predisposition, others may experience a bout with it due to some events like divorce, loss of jobs, death of a loved one, etc... It hardly happens by chance. Years ago, after a boxing match in which Tommy Hearns beat Mexican boxer Pipino Cuevas, some Cuevas fan in Mexico commited suicide. This person may not have exhibited any warning signs, but some sudden sufferers will actually voice them, and there's no one there to hear him/her. They are not cowards. Was Ernest Hemmingway a coward? Don't think so.

-Jose?to

 

[Jane J.]

Jose?to, that's called reactive depression. My girlfriend was just diagnosed with that, anxiety disorder, hypochondriasis, and, uh, a stupid husband, IMO. He''ll say things to her like, "Qu? lo que hay en esa mente podr?a", or "Dime, muerta" or "Lo que a ti te hace falta es hacer ejercicio". No understanding of the concept at all, while, oddly enough, I would diagnose him with that SADD thing (you know, weather-related depression). He's just a misery.

 

[kjdrga]

I just wish there could be more done to help those that reach out. When I had arrived back in the village a couple days after the 9 days of the 13 year old suicide, I tried explaining to people that something could have been done. But really people blamed the parents for neglecting her. Also even if someone is labeled "loco" they don't bother seeking treatment because they don't have the money and they'll always be labeled.

My husband is definately predispositioned to probably some sort of MI as many people in his family have had one thing or another, therefore I try my hardest educating him of the signs and symptoms. I tell him that he lives in the U.S. now, he can seek treatment, his family won't have to find out. I get a blank stare.

But lately he's starting asking questions about what is couseling/therapy. I know I've planted a bug there and he thinks about it. But besides getting beyond the machismo, I think he'll eventually go.

 

[jose?to]

kjdrga...

I'm glad you're being supportive of your husband. I've known of others that have talked about leaving the relationship rather than deal with it. I applaud you.

-Jose?to

 

[OwnRules]

Score one for the "psudo-intellec[sic] chess playing nerds"!

Despite all the efforts to the contrary, turns out this thread has become a showcase for many of those intelligent, open-minded posters, I alluded to earlier. Great stuff from boring pseudo-intellectuals such as Amber, Pib, Arve, leja and Joseito.

Kudos to Pibs and leja in particular, who have expressed my views on this issue much more succintly and lucidly than I could. Because what they wrote is what I think this discussion really narrows down to. Namely, that we're not helplessly bound to act a certain way just because we've inherited certain traits.

And while I am certainly not a scientist and I am going on a certain amount of gut feeling, the alternative, that we're just the sum total of a limited number of genetic/memetic instructions, and thus, ultimately, totally predictable in our actions, is too scary to contemplate. Not that there aren't any number of scientists working with just said premises though. In fact, I recently had fascinating conversation with a DR1 member about a new Internet software that can 'predict' exactly where you'll click next on any particular page build with said software. He'd actually seen it at work.

Creepy stuff. But in the meantime, I plan to proceed under the illusion that I still have free will and try to act more like a bonono than an Ape.

Bonobo Sex and Society

The behavior of a close relative challenges assumptions about male supremacy in human evolution.

[snip]

The species is best characterized as female-centered and egalitarian and as one that substitutes sex for aggression.

I could live with that.