Demonic Males: Apes and the Origins of Human Violence

[Pib]

Re: Another gorilla broke lose

Take my word for it and understand Dominican men.

If you don't want to get a bullet hole in your head, don't go out with Dominican apes. It's that simple. But I don't think they will take my advice. Dominican women just love "apes" and their strong arms tactics.

Sometimes you are totally clueless. Dominican women do not "love 'apes'". You are wrong. Most women prefer men that would not resort to violence, neither against them nor anybody else. Some women would tolerate spousal abuse. A VERY small group could be sick enough to actually like it. If you dissagree with this you must be deluded.

Furthermore, Dominican men are not all abusers. Not a majority, not even a small minority. I agree that even the few that do is bad enough. Exaggerating the problem for the sake of shocking people or entertaining them is irresponsible and stupid.

Let's fight the REAL problem instead of slinging feces right and left.

 

[AnnaC]

Stop insulting the poor apes by comparing humans to them. I ask again where did it say that the ape beat up the females to show how dominant and protective they are.
Don't confuse dominance with brutaliy. The apes did NOT beat up the females to win or keep them.
So go beat each other up and leave the females alone

 

[Chirimoya]

What we can conclude is that evolution has been reversed and in fact apes are now more evolved than men in that they don't beat up the females while human males do... Or is it that only some men are 'evolving' or wish to do so.

On the 'pseudo-intellectual' debate, I would add that there are two types of people posting on these boards. The first type only likes to blow their own trumpet and parade their opinions. When they disagree with another poster they resort to cheap jibes and personal attacks. Then we have the type who will debate reasonably and consider all points of view whether they agree with them or not.

Disagreeing with golo is not the same as attacking him! Golo, though usually very courteous, hardly ever addresses points that people have challenged in his arguments. AZB never listens to the other point of view and just repeats his argument. Criss meanwhile just goes for the jugular!

I know whose opinions on this thread I share, but it is not to say that the ones with whom I broadly disagree have not given me some food for thought as well. I value provocative statements becasue they challenge me to find the counter-argument. And Criss for example made some interesting points about why women make these choices.

Chiri

 

[Pib]

there are two types of people posting on these boards. The first type only likes to blow their own trumpet and parade their opinions. When they disagree with another poster they resort to cheap jibes and personal attacks. Then we have the type who will debate reasonably and consider all points of view whether they agree with them or not.

I disagree with you. There's a third type of people here: the ones who don't take the time to spark up the "old gray cels" and and say their opinion on the subject matter and just resort to one-liners to show just how cool they are. I take AZB over those any day.

In having a conversation with one of the drivers in my company on the subject of "spousal abuse" I heard the same argument we heard from Tongo, I mean Golo. That is that women who tolerate abuse somewhat "like it". Been that I don't have to do much on Saturdays I took the time to give this guy a different view on the problem, and that is that women sometimes are just forced to tolerate it because they feel that ending the relationship would make the guy madder, because they don't have the support of their families or as Criss wisely suggested because she has no financial means to support her family (among other reasons).

I told him to imagine it was his sister mother or daughter that was been abused, how would he feel? What would he do? Does he know somebody who's been abused? What support did she/he get? Can she/he trust the police to protect her/him? Nothing like seen the story from the other side of the fence or hearing what these abused people have to say to change people's opinion. I am glad to say that I think he changed his mind. Probably all his life he approached the problem as a joke or a thing to laugh at.

We need to speak up. We need to educate. We need to support abused women/men. We need to pressure the authorities. We need to educate! As humans I think we can learn how to behave in a civilized manner. I wouldn't like to think that people who believe that we are predetermined to act in a certain manner piss on fire hydrants and hump women's legs in public.

 

[mondongo]

Chiri....there are sometimes sightings of posters and posts on DR1 that mimic the characteristics of reason...some threads are fabled to have even had an actual exchange of ideas....and evidence was excavated where a thread actually resulted in a poster comtemplating another's opinion. but this is only a rumor.

 

[Tony C]

Re: kjdrga...

Every time I hear about someone being depressed, it pains me. And when they commit suicide, they get the "coward" label. They are not cowards. Was Ernest Hemmingway a coward? Don't think so.

-Jose?to

Oh Yes he was. During WWI he refused to fight and was an Ambulance driver.
He also was a drunk and a wife beater.
And a above average writter. Even though the book for which he won the Nobel prize was a nice bit of plagerism.
Then he committed suicide.
That makes him a big coward in my book!

 

[jose?to]

Tony C...

There you go again. Listen here, kid, you have no idea what you're talking about. As I said before, your wealth does not an expert makes of you. Your hate for Castro spills over to Ernest H. for obvious reasons. You just love to voice your little sound bites. Man, you have no clue.

And back to the topic of depression. Well, never mind.

-Jose?to

 

[Pib]

Re: Re: kjdrga...

Even though the book for which he won the Nobel prize was a nice bit of plagerism.

Of course I expected you to know that the Nobel prize isn't like the MTV VMAs. It isn't given out for "a book".

Depressing it is.

 

[Criss Colon]

"My father can "Beat-Up" your father!!!!!

Lets not forget that Hemmingway was also a "Bi-Sexual"! Can we get back to "Human Violence",and "Depression" before I have to Kick Everyones ASS,and then "Kill Myself"!!!!


Moderator CCCCCCCCCCCCcccccccccc

 

[jose?to]

As I said before, depression is difficult to understand. In my simple English, I'll say it like this: Too many people use the term to describe their moments of sadness. That downplays the real meaning of the word 'depression'. It gets overused.

Those that have experienced it, know what I'm talking about. And people like KJDRGA are open-minded enough to understand. Then there are those that dismiss it. Let's hope they don't ever have to find out first-hand, no matter who they are. I know.

-Jose?to

 

[OwnRules]

Depression can indeed be horrible if left untreated/unrecognized. Part of the problem lies in the way it has been stigmatized by society in general -- although recognized as a legitimate psychological disorder for many years, there's still a lot of the "stop feeling sorry for yourself" attitude going around. Which has exactly the opposite effect on the depressed person as they are likely to shut down even more in order to avoid the hurtful commentary. Gets incredibly lonely. I know, I've been there as well.

On the other hand, I don't think too many people realize that there can be positive results when dealing with and overcoming a depression. If understood correctly by the person suffering from it, it can lead to some of the most intense periods of instrospection a human being will go through. One can come out of such a dark period with not only a much better understanding of self, but with a new or revised set of values which are more in tune with what we really are -- as opposed to all the (false) expectations we chose to place on ourselves and those imposed by society. Revised goals if you will.

Obviously, those are generalized statements in "ideal" circumstances. Certainly not applicable in so many of those cases that go untreated/misunderstood, and even when they are, you'll find that for many people fighting depression becomes a life-long battle. It's like living inside a huge dark tunnel -- having had a glimpse of it myself, I can certainly empathize.

Disclaimer: It was certainly not my intention to either A-Put anyone to sleep with "pseudo-intellectual" commentary or B-Use "big words" in order to befuddle Mr. AZB.

In any event, YMMV.

 

[jose?to]

Good post, OwnRules. I, too, had a glimpse of it back in 1994. I'd rather get all my teeth and nails pulled out without any pain-killers, than to go through that again. And I would rather wish for someone to lose an election than to wish them a bout with depression.

-Jose?to

 

[Amber]

Depression

I agree with you, Joseito. Depression is the one thing that can destroy anyone, regardless of their strength.. something not to be wished upon your worst enemy. It's diffiult to grasp just how one can reach the point where nothing seems to give one enough reason to continue breathing.. But all I can say is that it is a pit so dark and solitary that no one can reach you, save yourself.
The type of depression that most of you are reffering to when you talk about families with several individuals showing signs of imbalanced behavior is most likely a common one caused by massive hormonal imbalances which can at times make the slightest inconvenience seem intolerable. Add to this a few divroces in the family, verbal abuse as a child and the like and you've got a time bomb in your hands. It's not something to be taken lightly, nor is it easy to deal with unless it is diagnosed early on and continuously treated. When dealing closely with a person who shows some signs of depession it is best to read between the lines for it is not that often that a person truly wishing to "end it all" will warn anyone.
About agression, there is one point no one has touched upon. How about the most common case of agression: Phychological agression. Verbal abuse. I think it is much more difficult to detect and worse to deal with than the physical one. It is also the most common type of abuse in today's society, leaving the the worst scars.....those that can't be seen....
Amber

 

[kjdrga]

Amber... a lot of what you describe is what my husband grew up in. Just to give you an example:

He has 72 first cousins and that is out of only 8 aunts and uncles. His father alone has 13 children, five of whom are with my hubby's mother that he married. The others were with his secretary while he was governer, some other putas. He has three children the same age with three different women. My husband's father treated my husband's mother like a five year old for over 20 years. Verbally abusing, controling everything and everyone by being the sole provider for the family. Yet he spent most of his days with the other women and occasionally would go out to the campo to be with his "primary" family.

My husband's mother was clinically depressed for probably most of her life. She rarely protested her husband because of the fear she had from him. Besides her depression, she had a younger sister that committed suicide at 16 or 17. Her parents died rather young, one from some sort of cancer the other rumored to have killed himself shortly after the first went. She has had another sister commit suicide, but the details of that are vague. Turns out my mother-in-law died at the age of 42 of a sudden heart attack 5 months ago. Many people say she is finally resting and that she is finally happy. No more aggressive behavior on behalf of her husband. Of course now the kids have to take his crap. But they unlike her speak out against him when he gets out of control. Even though he still controls the money and they are scared of him.

Machismo is what many people would say is an excuse for that type of behavior. I think that fact that the man is no longer in power, doesn't have the millions he used to when he first came back from NY, that he keeps people at arms length speaking loudly to them and treating them like 5 year olds, because as most people in the town know he really is a "nobody" now. He just doesn't want to face it.

 

[Tony C]

Re: Re: Re: kjdrga...

Of course I expected you to know that the Nobel prize isn't like the MTV VMAs. It isn't given out for "a book".

Depressing it is.

Hemingway's Nobel prize in literature was given to him after he came out with "The Old man and the Sea." It is common knowledge among the literary circles that he was given the award because of that book.

Joseito. Tell me how I am wrong about Hemingway!

Clinical Depression is Like ADD. Both exist but have been diagnosed way too freely.

 

[Cleef]

I don't want to talk about it

I Don't Want to Talk About It
Overcoming the Secret Legacy of Male Depression
by Terrence Real

If you've never read it, check it out. Quite good.

 

[Larry]

Clinical Depression is Like ADD. Both exist but have been diagnosed way too freely.-Tony C

I think this is true.OCD is another one.These days all you have to do is tell a doctor you feel a little run down and he will try and put you and prozac.Just look at Jazzcom.
Larry

 

[Amber]

Kj, the family portrait you presented sounds very familiar. You husband needs pofessional help NOW.
One thing guys, of course we all know that most types of depression have been researched, studied and dissected to death, but remember where we are living, and the resources available. Remember that in most families, the golden rule is that there are things better left unsaid, which then makes the affected person an outcast. I am talking about the general public not privy to enough education about this who generally bind the person to a life of hiding his/her condition, thus agravating the situation. Perhaps this very person then turns agressive to conpensate for a diminished self-esteem; or overy submissive assuming that there is nothing better out there for them. By this I am by no means being sympathetic towards agressive people, but understanding where it could be coming from is a step towards affecting behavioral changes in both the agressive individual and the submissive one. Many times, both the women who take the abuse and the men who abuse them have come from similar backgrounds and both must be treated.
As to women prefferring agressive men, I disagree wholeheartedly. I've never met a woman who did, either. But I have noticed something strange over the years. I have met many men who adore women who treat them badly and these same men look down upon any woman who isn't a B**ch. That is a true enigma for me.
Amber

 

[kjdrga]

When I lived in the DR in the same campo near my BF now Husband I would think that he seemed so depressed, actually now that I think about it the whole family was. I honestly thought he could hurt himself because he was miserable living under the wrath of his dicatator alcoholic father.

But I have seen a great improvement in him since he and I have been together, going on 4 years now (less than a year married). Since he has moved to the States there has been 100% improvement. I think distance between him and his father was part of the solution. He even went with me once to my therapy appt., which was really to get him to understand that they is nothing to be afraid about in talking to a stranger.

Several things lead me to believe now that he would never hurt himself, one he has always had a very positive outlook on life, even though there wasn't much of a future in the DR for him with his father being overberring. Since his mother died he is more determined to not let his siblings lose the hope that they will be independent too one day. Third, with his cousin having just committed suicide after killing his girlfriend, he say he would never kill himself and especially over a woman. (which I always joke with him, so what does that make me dog food?)

I just think though his family upbringing is not untypical of many families I know whether it be in the DR, Panama, Africa, even some town hokie pokie USA. It's the oppression that some of these people go through and the lack of attention by their government in which they do the same thing day in and day out through out their lives, thinking and hoping "well maybe this year the price of guandules will be better than last year" That's why so many gamble, in hopes of a big payout so they can pay their workers, many drink so they don't have to worry about their problems, and then many have other women and more babies so they still can feel superior and worth something.

also the infamous saying "pueble chicito, inferno grande" Anyones life can be made a living hell at times.

 

[mobrouser]

Then there are those that dismiss it. Let's hope they don't ever have to find out first-hand

1) suicide is an act of selfish cowardice. the "survivors"-the family members who must live the rest of their lives questioning whether they did all they could; or, for example, the employee who must live with the image after discovering their employer's body hanging from the rafters of the warehouse-all have first-hand experience , and have every right to be angry at the perpetraitor. anyone who has the comprehension to commit this pre-meditated act has the ability to comprehend the disastrous effects their choice has on the "survivors".

2) murder-suicide is no more an act of depression, than one can claim rape is about sex. they are both malicious, despicable acts committed to dominate another human.

(the only possible exception that could be made for either 1 or 2 is in the case of terminal illness-i still haven't been able to rationalize my beliefs in that situation, and it's way off topic here.)


i know nothing about the state of mental health care or mental health education in RD, and only a little more about societal expectations, but the concept of family could not have survived without children learning about the consequences their actions have on others. perhaps if people were reminded of that daily, then maybe a lot of the other crap that goes on right now would stop.

mob


ps. isn't it ironic that this:

There's a third type of people here: the ones who don't take the time to spark up the "old gray cels" and and say their opinion on the subject matter and just resort to one-liners to show just how cool they are.

and this:

Of course I expected you to know that the Nobel prize isn't like the MTV VMAs. It isn't given out for "a book".

would appear in the same thread. i believe that Tony C deserves an apology.