- Thread starter George Holmes
- Start date
Dominicans: Are they pathologically inconsiderate?
Do you mean you didn't see courtesy that you would define as such? Or maybe it's the big city effect? I go out in Puerto Plata and the lad who packs my bags in Tropical, Alex, smiles & shakes my hand, the guy at the gas station Juan, smiles and shakes my hand, the owner of the farmacia Federico, smiles and shakes my hand, Benji in the breadshop smiles and.......you got it! And they all know me by name too. Always, I'm asked how I am, how Grahame is etc etc everywhere I go. I see that as courtesy. And we don't have the door issue because the breadshop, farmacia and gas station are open & Tropical has automatic doors............
There is a big difference.Do you mean you didn't see courtesy that you would define as such? Or maybe it's the big city effect? I go out in Puerto Plata and the lad who packs my bags in Tropical, Alex, smiles & shakes my hand, the guy at the gas station Juan, smiles and shakes my hand, the owner of the farmacia Federico, smiles and shakes my hand, Benji in the breadshop smiles and.......you got it! And they all know me by name too. Always, I'm asked how I am, how Grahame is etc etc everywhere I go. I see that as courtesy. And we don't have the door issue becaause the breadshop, famacia and gas station are open & Tropical has automatic doors............
You are a lady.
Scandall is a grown up version of Dennis The Menace.
I have noticed that Dominicans get offended if you criticise their ideas. I was speaking to some public servants and I asked them why they chose one course of action and not another with regards to one of their policies. I did this in a respectful way, saying that it was a hypothetical situation, but they took this as a personal insult. They thought I was criticising them personally rather than making a hypothetical speculation on their ideas.
This has nothing to do with my spanish, but perhaps Dominicans are more likely to be offended when you criticise their ideas, even in a constructive friendly way?
This has nothing to do with my spanish, but perhaps Dominicans are more likely to be offended when you criticise their ideas, even in a constructive friendly way?
I am a child of Dominicans raised in the US. From the age of 4 I've been travelling to the DR and I've always loved the culture, and "my people". Having said that, I remember the first time that I used an ATM there and being horrified to the nth degree at the total lack of others' not respecting one's personal space. Then I noticed one lady in front of me having trouble using the ATM, and the guy behind her just walked up, stuck his head in her business and helped her. She didn't mind and took it as perfectly normal, even a courtesy.
Me [in my head]: "HELLLOOOO!!!??? OMG who does that omg omg?!!"
Other people in the line also gave their opinions, went over to the woman, also offered help...etc etc.....again, all perfectly normal......
Possibly, it was the lady's first time using this service and didn't know from being nervous...so don't think I'm suggesting that every Dominican is so blithe and naive as to let strangers conduct their ATM business for them.
And now to the question of whether Dominicans have no consideration for others, e.g., littering, loud music playing, etc....I have some insight that may be helpful.
I grew up in a family that is not rich, just middle class, but what in the DR is considred "de buena familia", respectable, "gente educada", meaning that you were raised right and taught your P's and Q's. An old noble family with lots of education and tradition and little money. My experience as I've heard countless times from grandmother and aunts is that only people "sin clase", like from the DR ghettos, barrios etc. [not necessarily from the campos because campo people are very "educadas"], but just lowdown rednecky types behave in all those inconsiderate ways.
So, it's not all Dominicans, just the ones who, like everywhere else in the world, just weren't taught any better.
really obvious why!
lack of education and respect for any one else bar nbr 1.85%are not taught manners at all,its the old dog eat dog attitude,and to back up rocky's reply i have twigged that they grow up quick to the age of 18 or so and then they stay in this state of adolesence or child likeness for the remainder of there lives.
it is annoying at times but its like p$$$ing against the wind trying to point out to them there ignorent or primative ways.just like uneducated kids/teenagers all over the states or europe australia etc:who have an iq of 40 to 50 perhaps who behave like neandertalls.the people there are as dumbassed and thick as (ok)the vast majorety of the folks here.
its a primitave country with a primitave people.theres nothing bar a huge injection of cash and resources into education and maybe a little REAL religion of the "do on to others kind"rather than the help ME and only me attitude will things"possibly"change.until then stay away from the roaring screaming bunch as much as you can.
one dissagrement though,"easy smiles"?never seen so many long faces since i was in russia(walk the beaches anywhere here without stopping to buy something and you will see what i mean).help you out with directions etc?send you in the wrong way more like it as they dont have the gumption to say"I DONT KNOW!"and if they do know and escort you its gonna cost,unlike MY experiences in europe the states australia and asia,PLEEEEEEESSSSEE!gotta cut out now theres two locals "talking"beside me as though they are shouting for their team in the world cup final,ahhhhhh paradise found(or is it paradise lost?).........
lack of education and respect for any one else bar nbr 1.85%are not taught manners at all,its the old dog eat dog attitude,and to back up rocky's reply i have twigged that they grow up quick to the age of 18 or so and then they stay in this state of adolesence or child likeness for the remainder of there lives.
it is annoying at times but its like p$$$ing against the wind trying to point out to them there ignorent or primative ways.just like uneducated kids/teenagers all over the states or europe australia etc:who have an iq of 40 to 50 perhaps who behave like neandertalls.the people there are as dumbassed and thick as (ok)the vast majorety of the folks here.
its a primitave country with a primitave people.theres nothing bar a huge injection of cash and resources into education and maybe a little REAL religion of the "do on to others kind"rather than the help ME and only me attitude will things"possibly"change.until then stay away from the roaring screaming bunch as much as you can.
one dissagrement though,"easy smiles"?never seen so many long faces since i was in russia(walk the beaches anywhere here without stopping to buy something and you will see what i mean).help you out with directions etc?send you in the wrong way more like it as they dont have the gumption to say"I DONT KNOW!"and if they do know and escort you its gonna cost,unlike MY experiences in europe the states australia and asia,PLEEEEEEESSSSEE!gotta cut out now theres two locals "talking"beside me as though they are shouting for their team in the world cup final,ahhhhhh paradise found(or is it paradise lost?).........
Very hard to read this. Syntax? Grammar? I gather that you were surrounded in the DR by unhappy and surly people? Were you on vacation? If you're goint to rant against us, pray make some sense.
I forgot to add in my above post that DR society and culture has been greatly influenced by the large influx of Dominican-Yorks, ie 2nd and 3rd and 4th etc., generation Dominicans born and raised in NYC, of uneducated people, who have adopted and embraced the hip hop "urban" antisocial, angry, degrading behavior. They've traveled back to the DR over the past 20or so years and brought the plague with them.
Society has become very cynical over time and this is true here in the DR also. With the help of things like the media and general living we are bombarded with the social problems and we initially recognize that others are suffering. Our immediate reaction is to want the suffering to stop and wonder if there is anything that we might be able to do to help. When no viable avenues for action are presented and we fail to generate any ourselves we end up feeling powerless to help the suffering we have witnessed. This knowledge that others are suffering and that nothing can be done to stop it has a tendency to sadden us. This has a tendency to inspire anger and blame people in positions of power for not doing anything to stop it either. We come to accept that perhaps nothing can be done, the problems are too deeply rooted and we are powerless to change them. We slowly numb ourselves to the suffering and because knowing this kind of information about the world only results in taking on negative emotions we begin to avoid finding out about or noticing the suffering in the first place. Over time we end up shutting out most of society's social problems and retreating further into our own insular personal lives. We become apathetic.
The question that continues to be avoided in discussions like this is what you as a part of society want for the rest of society? Do you want society as a whole to progress and if so is your desire for society here in the DR to progress also? It becomes apparent that there are a number of Dominicans that want their society to progress which is only proper in this ever changing world. It seems to be understood that no society survives for very long without a moral compass to guide its evolution and progress. So what is a moral compass? I guess it could be what ever you want it to be but those that are much more knowledgeable than I have determined that integrity, forgiveness, compassion, and responsibility are the main ingredients along with things like freedom, equality, justice, sustainability, democracy, community, and tolerance. It is with this moral compass that allows us as a society to accept and help other segments of society. It has been my experience through life that proper etiquette helps in this acceptance and help. The simple act of greeting other people and offering a handshake are parts of proper etiquette as well as offering a thank you and please for services rendered and expected. All of these segments of proper etiquette are not new and have been a part of society for generations. The fact that not all cultures recognize all of them is no indication that their total recognition wouldn?t help in the progression of a society.
It is because of this thought process that I refuse to accept the complete Dominican way and continue to use those portions of proper etiquette that I was taught since childhood. It is my hope that in so doing that the feeling that the Dominicans receive from my honest thank you and please will have a tendency to expand their vocabulary. My always showing up at a stated time or a call saying I will be a few minutes late is something else I always do in the hope of teaching that I am good at my word and maybe this will pass on. If I fail in this endeavor then I have lost nothing in the process.
Rick
The question that continues to be avoided in discussions like this is what you as a part of society want for the rest of society? Do you want society as a whole to progress and if so is your desire for society here in the DR to progress also? It becomes apparent that there are a number of Dominicans that want their society to progress which is only proper in this ever changing world. It seems to be understood that no society survives for very long without a moral compass to guide its evolution and progress. So what is a moral compass? I guess it could be what ever you want it to be but those that are much more knowledgeable than I have determined that integrity, forgiveness, compassion, and responsibility are the main ingredients along with things like freedom, equality, justice, sustainability, democracy, community, and tolerance. It is with this moral compass that allows us as a society to accept and help other segments of society. It has been my experience through life that proper etiquette helps in this acceptance and help. The simple act of greeting other people and offering a handshake are parts of proper etiquette as well as offering a thank you and please for services rendered and expected. All of these segments of proper etiquette are not new and have been a part of society for generations. The fact that not all cultures recognize all of them is no indication that their total recognition wouldn?t help in the progression of a society.
It is because of this thought process that I refuse to accept the complete Dominican way and continue to use those portions of proper etiquette that I was taught since childhood. It is my hope that in so doing that the feeling that the Dominicans receive from my honest thank you and please will have a tendency to expand their vocabulary. My always showing up at a stated time or a call saying I will be a few minutes late is something else I always do in the hope of teaching that I am good at my word and maybe this will pass on. If I fail in this endeavor then I have lost nothing in the process.
Rick
C
Chip00
Guest
Two cents
It's obvious many gringos just can't seem to understand that most Dominicans don't value things in the same order that they/we do. This took me a while to see and understand and in fact there are some things I still don't quite have a handle on.
Dominicans are very much more social than Westerners and therefore their "value system" reflects this bias. Once you learn what is important and not important to a Dominican things will be a lot clear to you and you will be less frustrated for sure.
As far as the "long faces" comment by one "spelling challenged" poster, if you think that it is a reflection of their mood I challenge you to approach them and say "buenas tardes" and see if they don't let out with a sincere smile. Don't confuse a "long face" with depression here as you might in the Western World. In fact I'm sure you'd be surprised to find out that most Dominicans find westerners as being "muy seco".
This country needs a lot of changes but there is also a lot of good things about the people here. I for one appreciate how one can go into a room of strangers and say "buenas tardes" and have most of the people smile and say "buenas tardes". You do that in the States and the best you might get is a ignored if not a look that says "who the hell are you" or "what are you looking at". Also, what about the fact that you can smile at kids and they will smile back at you?
The thing I see the most is that the education system needs to be changed and not only that how society values education. I would just hope it doesn't ever do away with the socially and family centered culture here as it seems to be doing in Europe and the US. If you don't believe me just ask your parents or or your grandparents how things were in the neighborhood back in the day. You'll probably find out that people didn't lock their doors at night, knew all the neighboors and golly gosh, even talked with them on a daily basis? How many gringos can say that about where they live back home?
Sincerely
a gringo y Santiaguero, hasta la tambora!
It's obvious many gringos just can't seem to understand that most Dominicans don't value things in the same order that they/we do. This took me a while to see and understand and in fact there are some things I still don't quite have a handle on.
Dominicans are very much more social than Westerners and therefore their "value system" reflects this bias. Once you learn what is important and not important to a Dominican things will be a lot clear to you and you will be less frustrated for sure.
As far as the "long faces" comment by one "spelling challenged" poster, if you think that it is a reflection of their mood I challenge you to approach them and say "buenas tardes" and see if they don't let out with a sincere smile. Don't confuse a "long face" with depression here as you might in the Western World. In fact I'm sure you'd be surprised to find out that most Dominicans find westerners as being "muy seco".
This country needs a lot of changes but there is also a lot of good things about the people here. I for one appreciate how one can go into a room of strangers and say "buenas tardes" and have most of the people smile and say "buenas tardes". You do that in the States and the best you might get is a ignored if not a look that says "who the hell are you" or "what are you looking at". Also, what about the fact that you can smile at kids and they will smile back at you?
The thing I see the most is that the education system needs to be changed and not only that how society values education. I would just hope it doesn't ever do away with the socially and family centered culture here as it seems to be doing in Europe and the US. If you don't believe me just ask your parents or or your grandparents how things were in the neighborhood back in the day. You'll probably find out that people didn't lock their doors at night, knew all the neighboors and golly gosh, even talked with them on a daily basis? How many gringos can say that about where they live back home?
Sincerely
a gringo y Santiaguero, hasta la tambora!
Rocky that was really a great post! To me, it helps to explain the actions & behavior of my dominican in-laws--and the neighbors too; and in no way is it a put-down to anyone. I have learned to deal with problematic people by just shaking my head and trying to be more tolerant without ever thinking about the "why" of their behavior.
chip that LONG FACE story reminds of my GF...she was on the bus into santiago and was at the window...and just daydreaming...looking blankly into space....and since she is kinda attractive, guys are always wanting to say something to her...to start up a conversation...so a guy in a car next to the bus gets her attention some how and calls her cara bacha( or how ever you say COW FACE).... and she just burst out laughing......she said he said it so funny ...
thinking more about the OP original question....Ill add some personal experience with my GFs extended family. and the road to her house.
when I travel many of the guys sitting on the side of the road playing dominicos or just hanging out in a local group , will wave when they see me....other will just look...but the second I wave...bam they are right there waving back....like they really want to be freindly, but they also want to be macho.
also her family is just very very nice people..they never ever curse. they never yell. my GFs uncles always always smile. and you know men want to be macho in the dr...but they are just so nice. I bet very few are inconciderate....maybe they dont think like americans do.....
they only have to THINK they are acting normal....and for them they ARE
we are outsiders. WE ( non dominicans)are different
bob
thinking more about the OP original question....Ill add some personal experience with my GFs extended family. and the road to her house.
when I travel many of the guys sitting on the side of the road playing dominicos or just hanging out in a local group , will wave when they see me....other will just look...but the second I wave...bam they are right there waving back....like they really want to be freindly, but they also want to be macho.
also her family is just very very nice people..they never ever curse. they never yell. my GFs uncles always always smile. and you know men want to be macho in the dr...but they are just so nice. I bet very few are inconciderate....maybe they dont think like americans do.....
they only have to THINK they are acting normal....and for them they ARE
we are outsiders. WE ( non dominicans)are different
bob
Well thanks for the vote of confidence but is it just a gender thing? I totally understand that I get the respect accorded grandmothers but then so does Bushbaby (whether he has read books or not!!
) well, not the grandmother version exactly but he also gets smiles and handshakes. But it's a two way stretch isn't it? I take the trouble to ask people their names, on meeting the second time & subsequently always I ask about the family etc etc. It is so much second nature now that when I visit UK which is infrequently they think I'm an abscondee from a psychiatric establishment because I don't fit with their culture any more.Never having had the pleasure of meeting Scandall I'm unable to comment on the Dennis the Menace adjective.........
but I read 'I yield in the supermarket aisles, hold doors open for others and wait my turn in line in the hopes that some of it might rub off...' and would ask why he would expect it to 'rub off'? We're in a culture which doesn't prioritise waiting in line as being of high value.And if you think the DR is 'bad' about this try Turkey. When you line up your vehicle to get on the ferry to cross the Bosphorus, you line up abreast not behind each other. When the ferry drops its rear end for you to drive on everyone surges forward at once, really scary. Fortunately I was driving a Land Rover.
Perhaps one day a time capsule will be opened and there will be a picture showing waving people. And the viewers will ask, "what are they doing?"
Which brings me to my next story. Some friends and I once did a test. We sat on a busy corner in San Diego California and waved to people as they passed in their vehicles. Sometime later I did this again in St. Louis. The difference was telling. The response in San Diego was almost all a quick glance and then eyes forward...no wave back. In St. Louis we got waves from about 65% of the people. Of course this was done about 10 years ago. Here in the DR I am sure in the campo one would get 100% wave backs.
Which brings me to my next story. Some friends and I once did a test. We sat on a busy corner in San Diego California and waved to people as they passed in their vehicles. Sometime later I did this again in St. Louis. The difference was telling. The response in San Diego was almost all a quick glance and then eyes forward...no wave back. In St. Louis we got waves from about 65% of the people. Of course this was done about 10 years ago. Here in the DR I am sure in the campo one would get 100% wave backs.
Thanks, Azabache.
I hoped that it would not be taken in a negative way.
In fact, almost everytime we hear people talking about how wonderful Dominicans are, it's that very thing, that appeals to them.
That easy smile & happy go lucky, no care in the world, attitude.
So true....great post!
I also love the undying great sense of humor, especially in uncomfortable situations, like when 5 are squished together in the back of a carro publico and people still manage to say hello, smile, and start conversations, especially if the morning radio talk show is on; the best part is when all the passengers band together to support their driver when he lets some other chofer have it!
I don't know if its just me but I don't see this type of behavior in the area of San Jose de Las Matas, in the campos, I don't know the more humble communities of the Capital Area (not the barrios) the outer areas, but Cibaenos in general are so different from the people of the Capital. The Cibaenos I could say are more polite and considerate than the people from the East. Maybe the expats have noticed it but I'm sure the tourists don't see it, there is a big difference between those areas.
True, where I live in a wee pueblo near Constanza the people are extremely polite and kind, which is why I am truly shocked and confused when I travel to the capital, and why I posted this thread in the first place. For example, something I have noticed is that when an odd job is offered by a rich landowner, some people will not apply for that job if they know a poorer person is applying for it, saying that person needs the job more than they do (what the fancy-pants academics call moral economy). They are also far more polite on a day to day basis than capitalenos. There is some sort of semblance of a queue in my rural colmado, but I have never seen anything other than a vicious scrummage when there is more that one person waiting to be served in a capital establishment.
Perhaps the title should have been Capitalenos: Are they pathologically inconsiderate.
Perhaps the title should have been Capitalenos: Are they pathologically inconsiderate.