Dominicans in the U.S. Can you identify?

[Lambada]

the distinction between racism and colorism... what is that?

Colourism I think encompasses more degrees of difference and similarity than black and white. 'Racism involves discrimination against persons based on their racial identity, which in turn is traditionally designated through a complex mix of self-identification and other-identification through appearance (including color) and ancestry. Colorism involves discrimination against persons based on their physiognomy, regardless of their perceived racial identity...........colorism reveals hierarchies of privilege and disadvantage within racialized groups.'
From Color Line to Color Chart?: Racism and Colorism in the New Century Angela P. Harris

Colourism: from a Local Legacy of Slavery to a Global Power Dynamic Cindy Gabrielle

The Origins and Effects of ?Colorism? in Latin America: A Comparative Study of Mexico and Brazil
Cesar J. Gonzalez

 

[Ricardo900]

In my experience, I can honestly say that MOST blacks in America don't care what dominicans classify themselves in regards to race. I've noticed in this thread and countless others that "Blacks get offended when Dominicans don't identify as being Black". These individuals are only a few and definitely not the majority, so I felt the need to straighten this out. For example, most Dominicans in NYC live within their own community, speak spanish with each other, attend social events with each other and rarely have any interactions with other races unless in the work environment. I've asked numerous Black Americans that travel frequently to the Dominican Republic, if they hang out or socialize with Dominicans in their cities or towns and honestly, the overwhelming majority said NO. The only time they interact with Dominicans is when they are on vacation, therefore have no opinions in regards to their way of life or what they consider themselves, racially.

I really believe that most Whites, Blacks, Asians, or other non-latino races, could'nt tell the difference between a Puerto Rican, Dominican, Cuban, or Colombian, and therefore don't care or not highly interested in their "racial classification".

Now in saying all of that, I've noticed that most negative comments in regards to Dominicans' color classifications comes from other Latin Americans, especially Puerto Ricans, Colombians and especially Mexicans. I am not saying ALL of them feels this way but I hear it more from them than other non-latin americans.

 

[POPNYChic]

Colorism=...umm...infighting?.... That revolves around whiteness representing a higher strata of society. All over the world you will see it. India, Asia, Many parts of Africa, Europe, The Middle East, All of Latin America and the U.S. and Canada do not stay behind.

Basically in all of these areas, beauty ideals are centered around apparent eurocentricity--the lighter, more silky-haired and finer-featured the better. And the media plays to these ideals, putting only the lightest, finest featured at the forefront while having the other darker people play scant background, lesser characters. Its an infallible equation at this point.

LA Novelas all have the same formula. Asian ones too. Indian cinema is known for it. Everyone does. Why? I do not know, but we as Dominicans are not any less prone to succumbing so here we are.

Its so pervasive that we rarely even notice it. We see it as normal for a minority of the worlds population to be seen as the "important and pretty ones". Yes, there are exceptions...many of them...but sometimes its the exceptions that prove the rule.

I won't judge the majority of the world for it because its obviously a tremendous pull and not exclusive to any particular history or factors. The disturbing part is that the majority of the world will never fit those ideals.

Where that leaves us I do not know. I can only speak for myself. I'm so done with the ladders and levels and casts that we humans are so prone to institute. Maybe I will go live in the campo and forget about it all.


Ricardo, yep. I have been looked down on largely by other Latin Americans. I have had several tell me I am more closely related to a Trinidadian than them. We have these romanticized eurocentric ideals and if you happen to be like most dominicans who are brown, its common to be snubbed by the "whiter" Latin Americans.

 

[Ricardo900]

Ricardo, yep. I have been looked down on largely by other Latin Americans. I have had several tell me I am more closely related to a Trinidadian than them. We have these romanticized eurocentric ideals and if you happen to be like most dominicans who are brown, its common to be snubbed by the "whiter" Latin Americans.

Saying that just shows what you've stated earlier that Most cultures suffer from some sort of "racial or color inferiority complex" it's a very diabolical, but creative way to keep people down, while of course they stay on top. But I believe that it boils down to self-awareness and a total disregard what other people think of you. Dominicans are "Latinos" period!! The CNN show opened many people's eyes, that's good, it's about time.

Also, my father immigrated to the US from Curacao, he didn't speak english and only spoke Dutch, Spanish and Papiamento, so he fought with classification in his life during the 60's & 70's.

 

[jrhartley]

when you say people look down on you how does this manifest itself ? I feel that a lot of people look down on me and I was always passed over for promotions at work- If I had been black I may have come to other conclusions, but since I'm not I suppose the other people were just better at their jobs or didnt like me .

 

[TOOBER_SDQ]

Basically, for me, accepting that I am part African and being proud of it, is part of my assimilation into Americanness. .............

Can you tell me WHY you are proud to be part African?

Have you ever been to Africa?

Have you ever lived in Africa?

Do you know that the northern part of Africa is populated with white people (Berbers)?

Does saying that you are proud to be African and not really knowing what that means make it easier for you to assimilate into the United States social fabric.

I am a white American, and have never told anyone that I am proud to be European because I?m not and it?s irrelevant.

Proud to be part African? It is not an achievement of yours; that is how you were born. You can be proud of something that you have achieved, or helped achieve, or strived for, or worked for, or earned etc.

Man the US really screws with people?s heads.

You're not African. You?re Dominican.

 

[pedrochemical]

Mr Hartley,
Perhaps it was because you looked "Scottish"?

 

[pedrochemical]

You can be proud of something that you have achieved, or helped achieve, or strived for, or worked for, or earned etc.

Man the US really screws with people’s heads.

Well said Tooberman!

I am happy to be a Yorkshireman. (Insert rude comments here) I am interested in my provenance, I am proud of some of the stuff I have done.

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

In my experience, I can honestly say that MOST blacks in America don't care what dominicans classify themselves in regards to race. I've noticed in this thread and countless others that "Blacks get offended when Dominicans don't identify as being Black". These individuals are only a few and definitely not the majority, so I felt the need to straighten this out. For example, most Dominicans in NYC live within their own community, speak spanish with each other, attend social events with each other and rarely have any interactions with other races unless in the work environment. I've asked numerous Black Americans that travel frequently to the Dominican Republic, if they hang out or socialize with Dominicans in their cities or towns and honestly, the overwhelming majority said NO. The only time they interact with Dominicans is when they are on vacation, therefore have no opinions in regards to their way of life or what they consider themselves, racially.

I really believe that most Whites, Blacks, Asians, or other non-latino races, could'nt tell the difference between a Puerto Rican, Dominican, Cuban, or Colombian, and therefore don't care or not highly interested in their "racial classification".

Now in saying all of that, I've noticed that most negative comments in regards to Dominicans' color classifications comes from other Latin Americans, especially Puerto Ricans, Colombians and especially Mexicans. I am not saying ALL of them feels this way but I hear it more from them than other non-latin americans.

You are correct. In real life, African Americans do not care or even dwell on who's black, how black, etc. are various LatinAmericans including Dominicans.
This phenomenon is mostly seen on the internet (articles, forums, blogs, etc.) where various Afrocentric scholars & idealogues have become obsessed with LatinAmerica & 'blackness'. I was raised with African Americans and am also speaking from personal experience. Dominicans are seen as Latinos regardless of what phenotype they display. I've been witness to a ton of denigrating anti-Latino in general & anti-Dominican in particular articles & threads directed at us which makes many of us rather defensive.

As far as the inter-Latino pecking order or the tension/conflicts between the different groups here in the USA, I find the following to be true and I feel any Dominican in the tri-state area can confirm this:

-Mexicans & Central Americans are looked down upon by all. I've seen them (other Latinos) actually target them, insult them, etc.
-People who look very Amerindian. This includes the abovementioned groups as well as Ecuadorians, Peruvians. They're seen as ugly, etc. To the point that if you tell someone your girlfriend is of one of those nationalities, just look at their facial reaction.

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

Can you tell me WHY you are proud to be part African?

Have you ever been to Africa?

Have you ever lived in Africa?

Do you know that the northern part of Africa is populated with white people (Berbers)?

Does saying that you are proud to be African and not really knowing what that means make it easier for you to assimilate into the United States social fabric.

I am a white American, and have never told anyone that I am proud to be European because I?m not and it?s irrelevant.

Proud to be part African? It is not an achievement of yours; that is how you were born. You can be proud of something that you have achieved, or helped achieve, or strived for, or worked for, or earned etc.

Man the US really screws with people?s heads.
You're not African. You?re Dominican.

I cannot refute or criticize her own personal experience that let her to think like this, but I too find it rather strange. It's almost as if some type of cultural 'disconnect' happened to her. I too find it strange.

 

[POPNYChic]

the disconnect is actually just coming from you not having ever been the "lesser one" for reasons you cant control and thus having no understanding of it.

if you are made to feel that anything of your origin that seems "african" is to be worthy of shame and bred out, then its necessary to attain some sort of love of that which is hated in order to be whole and level and discontinue the imbalance. im anti-nothing and pro-everything.

Nothing has messed with anything. I am part many things and I should be able to be happy with all of it, not just the parts that society deems "more acceptable". Our culture is slightly imbalanced in that sense and it is harmful to those left in the so-called lesser groups.

I claim who and what I am in its entirety. Its not for you to understand or determine.




jhartley when i say they look down on me, i mean they say so very clearly. its not "assumed" or "imagined". latinos are quite blunt.

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

I am a big critic of the whole victim mentality and let's blame past historical events for everything wrong now in particular blaming Christopher Colombus, the Europeans, 'the white man', etc. Here are some facts for those with a racialist view of everything and anything:

-Prejudice, discrimination and various "isms" have existed all over the world from the beginning of recorded history. This includes Africa, for example:

-Igbos are still discriminated in Nigeria and before anyone says that this is only tribalism, Igbo people are stereotyped as having a distinct 'look' such as the round or flat head, etc.

-Even before the arrival of the Europeans, Tutsi overlords and Hutus considered Pygmies little more than sub-human. They are currently being hunted and eaten, feel free to confirm.

-The people the Europeans called 'Bushmen' (Africas oldest known group) are discriminated against today in Botswana. They were also looked down upon by the invading Bantu tribes. And before anyone comes in here with their modern N. American view of 'blackness' (as if 'black people' are a single monolithic group) Bushmen are seen as quite distinct, feel free to talk to a black S. African.

-Somalians treat Somali Bantus (non-Horner people who are of different heritage) as virtual slaves to this day. And no, they don't look similar. A Somali Bantu looks more like a Central/West African. Also, many Horners (Ethiopia, Eritrea, Somalia, Djibouti) think of the stereotypical West African features as ugly in addition to the slave stigma.


The list goes on and on, but the point is to stop looking at everything with this radical racial view.

Oh, and one more but this one is in Europe:

-Caucasian people (people from the Caucus mountains) are routinely targeted by Russian racist skinheads. The ironic part is that this is where the origin of the word Caucasian came from, because supposedly this is where the white race originated from but now they're not considered white by Russians. :surprised

 

[POPNYChic]

actually dominicanusa, we agree.

its not that everythings racial. its that humans love to impose inferior/superior dynamics in any way they can within any setting or group. its just what we do. i do not see it as "racism". it still exists within cultures that have nothing to do with the "white man". its humanism and it manifests itself in a million different ways...so long as someone is superior. its crappy but oh well. we are not too different from dogs.

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

LA Novelas all have the same formula. Asian ones too. Indian cinema is known for it. Everyone does. Why? I do not know, but we as Dominicans are not any less prone to succumbing so here we are.

Allow me to expand on your post:

-The overwhelming amount of LatinAmerican novelas shown here in the USA are of Mexican origin. I 100% agree with you and it's a common joke here on the East Coast that it seems that Mexico is inhabitanted by two distinct people, the ones we see in the streets (very Amerindian) and those in the novelas (very European). Not to single Mexico out, but Mexicans in Mexico seem to be one of the worst offenders with this type of behaviour. It's like the small percent of 'white' Mexicans are all in the novela industry and when they don't have enought they also recruit other non-Mexican 'white' Latinos.

-Colombian novelas are another matter. They definitely do show a much wider spectrum of their society. This includes people of Afrodescendancy and not just in supporting roles.

-Dominicans are not really known for their novelas, but if you turn on Dominican TV you will see...Dominicans in all their shades and phenotypes.

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

actually dominicanusa, we agree.

its not that everythings racial. its that humans love to impose inferior/superior dynamics in any way they can within any setting or group. its just what we do. i do not see it as "racism". it still exists within cultures that have nothing to do with the "white man". its humanism and it manifests itself in a million different ways...so long as someone is superior. its crappy but oh well. we are not too different from dogs.

Agreed. It's just that I like going into the details because I'm used to reading all sorts of bizarre takes on what really happens in real life.

I'll give you another example:
It is quite common for many Africans and black West Indians (Jamaicans, Bajans, Trinis, Haitians) to look down upon African Americans. Many of the older people would prefer for thier sons and daughters not to date them.
In turn, many African Americans also look down upon Africans (seen as primitive, ugly, etc.) and black Caribbeans.
If this had been any other group it would have be seen as pure 'racism' but it is really not. It is driven by cultural differences.

I personally know Colombian women who do not date African Americans regardless of their skintone, but they will marry/date Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, other Colombians of Afrodescendancy. I'm sure if people didn't see this or know this they would just call it 'racism'.

 

[POPNYChic]

I find it highly interesting that even though its been stated that this topic and my conclusions, are a recognised field of study in the social sciences, some folks think its somehow unreasonable. Just because something never occurs to you or because its never been a part of your life, doesnt mean it doesnt exist or that its all inplausible lol there go those goggles again.

 

[POPNYChic]

Oh and I love Brazilian Novelas! I love all things Brazilian. Maybe they remind me of us? They sometimes feature more darker folks too and its only fair...I think I read that Brazil has the largest population of blacks in the world after Nigeria. I just think they are gorgeous for many of the same reasons we are.

All in all I think the world could learn from DR and Brazil. Despite everything, we may just be as "colorless" as it can realistically get in our kind of world.

 

[RGVgal]

Allow me to expand on your post:

-The overwhelming amount of LatinAmerican novelas shown here in the USA are of Mexican origin. I 100% agree with you and it's a common joke here on the East Coast that it seems that Mexico is inhabitanted by two distinct people, the ones we see in the streets (very Amerindian) and those in the novelas (very European). Not to single Mexico out, but Mexicans in Mexico seem to be one of the worst offenders with this type of behaviour. It's like the small percent of 'white' Mexicans are all in the novela industry and when they don't have enought they also recruit other non-Mexican 'white' Latinos.

-Colombian novelas are another matter. They definitely do show a much wider spectrum of their society. This includes people of Afrodescendancy and not just in supporting roles.

-Dominicans are not really known for their novelas, but if you turn on Dominican TV you will see...Dominicans in all their shades and phenotypes.

I live in an area with a high Mexican population and they don't all look like the "Mexicans" that most in the north east are accustomed to seeing. Other Latinos can be very ignorant of each other. Many times you hear Dominicans refer to indegenous looking people from central and south America as "Mexican" when they are not. Most of the Mexicans around here look just like the ones we see on the Telenovelas. So, I don't think they are importing "White" looking latinos just for TV as they have plenty of "White" Mexicans. Have you ever been to Monterrey?

 

[bob saunders]

Total agree RGVgal - I grew up with white mexicans.

From online: White Mexican is a Mexican citizen of European descent. Although Mexico does not have a racial census, some international organizations believe that Mexican people of full European descent make nearly one-fifth[1] of the country's population, or about 20 million people, thus making Mexico's white population the third largest in Latin America, after only those of Brazil and Argentina, respectively. They are found in all regions of the country, but are most common in the northern, central and western states. In addition, castizos and some mestizos (especially those with predominantly European features) may, in some cases, be considered white as well.

 

[DOMINICANUSA]

I live in an area with a high Mexican population and they don't all look like the "Mexicans" that most in the north east are accustomed to seeing.

Read carefully my post, it specifies a very specific trend and a common stereotypical perception in a specific area. I've been around Mexicans of all different 'looks' and from all different regions, I do not have the common held perception of what a Mexican is supposed to look like here in the East Coast.

Other Latinos can be very ignorant of each other. Many times you hear Dominicans refer to indegenous looking people from central and south America as "Mexican" when they are not.

Agreed. It applies to many Latino groups. On the East Coast, due to the fact that the overwhelming amount of Mexican immigrants come from states like Puebla, meaning that most have very Amerindian features, the average person here thinks they represent all of Mexico.
Also other Latinos, in particular West Coast Mexicans, think every black person that speaks Spanish is either Dominican or Puerto Rican even when the accent is no where similar (black Hondurans, Costa Ricans, Panamanians, etc.)
When I go to Texas, or have family that venture out of the tri-state, Mexicans there assume we're Puerto Rican (because we don't resemble David Ortiz or Sammy Sosa) etc.
Likewise when we had a busload of Mexican tourist come to a mall in NJ, everyone assumed they were Argentines (forgot what northern state they were from).

So, I don't think they are importing "White" looking latinos just for TV as they have plenty of "White" Mexicans.

The point I was making is that actors of pred. European ancestry are way over represented in Mexican imported telenovelas.
This specific statement is also voiced by many Mexicans themselves. It doesn't bother me at all, but the other poster seemed to have used this in her post as somehow implying all of LatinAmerica. Am I wrong?

Have you ever been to Monterrey?

No I haven't, why? I'm not stereotyping Mexicans I'm telling you what the common person says.