DR developing country or still 3rd world?

[ltsnyder]

The problem is the poverty, and I know that is a relative term. Many family's are either at or close to hand to mouth status. Not like Haitians, many Haitians are hand to mouth and one pot to their name (at least the construction laborers). While Dominicans have houses, getting food on the table is always a problem for a large proportion. It's this level of desperation coupled with virtually ineffective pay in any government job that leads to a not quite working system. Obviously their are neighborhoods that are better, but they are small because you really need to positively impact a lot of people (or sometimes the opposite) to rise above the low standard of living. Unfortunately food prices in the DR do in some ways follow the prices set for the US market, so as the basic staples prices increase in the short term due to the drought, the DR will have some more belt tightening, 1 due to price, 2 due to the US vacation taking percentage is dwindling.

It is "Third world" but it is very far from the worst but also far from the best of the third world.

 

[Big Dan]

Except that developing and 3rd-world mean the same thing (see above post).

BTW, I do hope that you have not chosen to live in the DR, though...what would you CALL someone who CHOOSES to live in a place where its government and population refuse to accept and adhere to the rule of law???

A few words come to mind, but they are likely to be forbidden here.

I lived there for just under a year and a half and visited many times before that. I have adequate experience to provide the basis for my opinion.

Call names if you like...my next vacation will be to DR, and perhaps I will spend time living there again.

You wanna fight or something because DR government and police are more corrupt than in first world countries? It is certainly an expected response.

 

[Criss Colon]

Until The Dominican People DEMAND,and then VOTE For,....

A government,"By The People and not (BUY the People) For The People,and OF The People,they will remain a "Developing Country"!
I think "Sir Winston" said,:"People Get The Government They Deserve!"
That is certainly the case here!
A "Government Job", here in the DR is looked at as "Winning The Lottery",WITH,a license to Steal thrown in!
I see that "Status Quo" as going on forever,with out a complete economic collapse,or some other outside event changing things here.
People like being "Taken Care Of".even if they re not taken care of very well.
"Beats Working",as many believe.
(No Need To Make Your "Boiler Plate" comments about how "It's Worse Everywhere else!",ok "C","P" and"Nas???)
Cause,"Frankly "Charlotte", I Don't Give Damn!" :lick::lick::lick:
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[Big Dan]

By your own standard the US is third world as it has the highest incarceration rate in the world. United States incarceration rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Actually, that stat would indicate that more people are punished for crimes in the U.S. than in D.R. Nothing more, nothing less.

A little honesty goes a long way...I like DR, but it is a small island nation with a poor educational system.

How about this: When people are able to drive down the street without even a thought or a memory of AMET or National Police shaking them down, then DR can be considered part of the first world.

 

[nas]

A government,"By The People and not (BUY the People) For The People,and OF The People,they will remain a "Developing Country"!
I think "Sir Winston" said,:"People Get The Government They Deserve!"
That is certainly the case here!
A "Government Job", here in the DR is looked at as "Winning The Lottery",WITH,a license to Steal thrown in!
I see that "Status Quo" as going on forever,with out a complete economic collapse,or some other outside event changing things here.
People like being "Taken Care Of".even if they re not taken care of very well.
"Beats Working",as many believe.
(No Need To Make Your "Boiler Plate" comments about how "It's Worse Everywhere else!",ok "C","P" and"Nas???)
Cause,"Frankly "Charlotte", I Don't Give Damn!" :lick::lick::lick:
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

CC,

I am not in disagreement with you on this topic.
something drastic must happen (coming from the people) for the DR leaders to change their ways.

The Boiler plate comments are necessary at times. Stereotypical statements have to be addressed with facts. The only way to address it is by introducing outside reference to show that it isn't a unique Dominican or DR issue; that's all!

 

[cobraboy]

something drastic must happen (coming from the people) for the DR leaders to change their ways.

Yeah, the culture must change.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to change the culture of a given population?

 

[Lucifer]

I think "Sir Winston" said,:"People Get The Government They Deserve!"

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It was Joseph de Maistre, circa 1811. And he meant it in a way that's opposite of what your post implies. He despised the French Revolution, and longed for the old days of the Ancien R?gime.

 

[nas]

Yeah, the culture must change.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to change the culture of a given population?

Yeah, the culture must change.

Leaders must be forced to change their ways.

A revolutionary leader has to step up, entice the masses and form a revolutionary movement.
Only a revolution or a totalitarian form of government will fix the DR problem.

It has been done before; all over the world. But the fire must be implanted in the masses.
Look what is happening in Syria and already happened in Egypt, Libya.

If the population remains complasant, forget about it!!

 

[cobraboy]

Yeah, the culture must change.

Leaders must be forced to change their ways.

A revolutionary leader has to step up, entice the masses and form a revolutionary movement.
Only a revolution or a totalitarian form of government will fix the DR problem.

It has been done before; all over the world. But the fire must be implanted in the masses.
Look what is happening in Syria and already happened in Egypt, Libya.

If the population remains complasant, forget about it!!

Seriously, you want a violent revolution like in the Middle East where the religious fruitcakes are in charge?

You want a Cuba or Venezuela for the DR?

For real?????

 

[Givadogahome]

Yeah, the culture must change.

Do you have any idea how hard it is to change the culture of a given population?

For the most part the people are followers, but there are few outspoken bottom feeders with any followers of their own. Most cultures have strong leaders of all classes that can create small change among a multicultural and varied society. The Dominican Republic is one dimensional in its actions, this is why nothing ever changes from the bottom, and with the majority being at the bottom this creates a culture and society that can not change because there is no force to make that change, or very little.
The younger generation seem to be more motivated for change than a couple of generations ago. My father in law when asked about his life and how he gets by and feels he has been treated over the years by his country, just sighs, 'I do as I'm told, I turn the other way if I sense confrontation, I turn a corner if I see a police check point, I don't go out of the street on national holidays, I stay below the radar and mute, I know my place, no one who ever stood up to anything ever got anywhere here'. That mindset is difficult to motivate, to change. But with a few strong good leaders in this younger generation, if they really made a stand and knew what they were standing for then the stone can start rocking, and once moving it is easier to get it rolling, then we can see change in culture. All this is so difficult though when you are talking about a mass that do not understand how the country is run or what is important for the countries future, it's all just now, screw tomorrow, Dan bought the barrios a few million in brugal and filled up vehicles free from a few gas stations for the weekend, so he's best for us.
You are right, that is difficult to change.

 

[Chip]

Actually, that stat would indicate that more people are punished for crimes in the U.S. than in D.R. Nothing more, nothing less.

A little honesty goes a long way...I like DR, but it is a small island nation with a poor educational system.

How about this: When people are able to drive down the street without even a thought or a memory of AMET or National Police shaking them down, then DR can be considered part of the first world.

I've been here for 7 years and driven all over the island and have never been "shaken down". If the AMET stops me and asks a question or two that isn't shaking anyone down, they are looking for stolen vehicles.

 

[Criss Colon]

20 to 25 years ago,it was an almost daily occurance to be stopped.
A 10 or 20 peso "Tip" was given,and you went on your way.
I used to give one "policia", who always directed traffic at an intersection I used every day,a 100 pesos a month.
He would stop all trafic so I could pass before everyone else.
Last 10 years,not so much.
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[Acira]

One example of how it can be done

Daens (1992) - IMDb

Only about 100+ years ago in Belgium but it changed the whole country and changed the lives of many people.
Not in a day of course but over the years but he was the voice who won the hearts of the many living in poverty and started a whole new political scenary.
I am not saying it has to be a man of the cloth but in this case it was although he was banned from the Catholic Church for this.

Acira

 

[Expat13]

I've been here for 7 years and driven all over the island and have never been "shaken down". If the AMET stops me and asks a question or two that isn't shaking anyone down, they are looking for stolen vehicles.

Chip, I think it is worse in the Capital! Do you honestly believe they are looking for stolen cars and not propinas? Everytime i have been stopped, i simple pay about 50 pesos if I have it on me, and I am off. I could have been in a stolen car for all they know-the tip before they ask for paperwork, and your on your way! Same reason a criminal can get released if he raises the required amount within the first 48 hours of being held. What would be the per cap imprisonment rate if they actually prosecuted all criminals?? I am not even referring to the corrupt criminals.

 

[PICHARDO]

I'll have more look getting in touch with some intelligent lifeforms to debate the DR issues in the SETI program than here...

One poster comes back talking out of his lack of reading and comprehension on the OP and my post (of he ever took the time to actually read it and not just pass by it), saying that I can't compare the DR to Haiti, but must instead compare to Costa Rica or Panama, or else.

First of all, Haiti IS a third world country (which is nothing more than a word now used to label a country that's at the sink hole of development terms and has little to do with the former significance of the label when it was introduced by politics and war) and the ideal place to gauge where the DR is at in this point in time.

How and why compared it to Costa Rica or Panama, two equally developing countries in the region? The share about every other aspect of development and lacks thereto as the DR does. Some with less or more success in some aspects but nevertheless equally developing at the same pace. You can't compare San Jose to Santo Domingo! SD would put San Jose's diminutive areas of success to shame just by sheer size of the greater SD areas of development. Same happens in Panama, where even within the capital, things are not as developed other than some taller buildings on the sea front to speak about. All recently made and still recently vacant on a huge percentage.

You don't compare a first world country with another to gauge their levels of development, but those below it, so why on heavens would you say it's unfair or uncalled to compare the DR's development to a next door perfect example of a country stuck in the third world smack in the middle of the western hemisphere and not Africa where most are still on that stage?

As far as culture and change, you don't change the culture, but the attitude and organization of the country's inner control.

Government is not the culture but the permissible actions allowed under a corrupted system. Corruption is not ingrained in the culture, but it's accepted by the culture by simply being overwhelmingly historical and slow to change.

The key to change is to enforce, and to enforce you need not trample or change the culture but the people's attitude towards what's permissible and not from their own government.

In the DR politics is like it's everywhere else, just more in your face and open when it comes to corruption. Politics is the business of gratifications. The more grafts the bigger the politics behind it.

In the U.S. and U.K. for example senators or lords would seek to pass bill and measures that provide certain benefits for particular groups and sectors from which he comes from. Back in the real street, these groups represented by powerful lobbies can carry their business with ease and guess where that senator gets his/her graft? Do you really think it's any different than what a DR senator does in the open fields here?

Same happens in the house of lords and elsewhere where there's a political system in place.

Politics is a business, not a public service. The only major difference is that in politics you're allowed to run the business into debt and losing money instead of making profit and nobody will fire you for it.

It's not the culture of corruption but the lack of enforcement!

Some will say it will never change, but that's beyond true.

The DR has changed a lot and will continue to change each year. Didn't the people activism force the government (elected) to abide for the 4% of the GDP to education? Where did that power all the sudden come from?

Didn't activists halted a company from excavating within Los Haitises? Didn't activism force the gov to incorporate a far reaching rider to the largest mining operation contract, in order to reverse the decades on end damages already impacting the area?

Imagine if tomorrow that activism freed itself from the political manipulation in some cases, and took to the streets to demand ousting a corrupted senator of public official for generally understood corruption?


Can it be done? I strongly believe we're soon to find out on this!

 

[Big Dan]

I've been here for 7 years and driven all over the island and have never been "shaken down". If the AMET stops me and asks a question or two that isn't shaking anyone down, they are looking for stolen vehicles.

Chip, LOL! That's all I can say.

 

[bob saunders]

I'll have more look getting in touch with some intelligent lifeforms to debate the DR issues in the SETI program than here...

One poster comes back talking out of his lack of reading and comprehension on the OP and my post (of he ever took the time to actually read it and not just pass by it), saying that I can't compare the DR to Haiti, but must instead compare to Costa Rica or Panama, or else.

First of all, Haiti IS a third world country (which is nothing more than a word now used to label a country that's at the sink hole of development terms and has little to do with the former significance of the label when it was introduced by politics and war) and the ideal place to gauge where the DR is at in this point in time.

How and why compared it to Costa Rica or Panama, two equally developing countries in the region? The share about every other aspect of development and lacks thereto as the DR does. Some with less or more success in some aspects but nevertheless equally developing at the same pace. You can't compare San Jose to Santo Domingo! SD would put San Jose's diminutive areas of success to shame just by sheer size of the greater SD areas of development. Same happens in Panama, where even within the capital, things are not as developed other than some taller buildings on the sea front to speak about. All recently made and still recently vacant on a huge percentage.

You don't compare a first world country with another to gauge their levels of development, but those below it, so why on heavens would you say it's unfair or uncalled to compare the DR's development to a next door perfect example of a country stuck in the third world smack in the middle of the western hemisphere and not Africa where most are still on that stage?

As far as culture and change, you don't change the culture, but the attitude and organization of the country's inner control.

Government is not the culture but the permissible actions allowed under a corrupted system. Corruption is not ingrained in the culture, but it's accepted by the culture by simply being overwhelmingly historical and slow to change.

The key to change is to enforce, and to enforce you need not trample or change the culture but the people's attitude towards what's permissible and not from their own government.

In the DR politics is like it's everywhere else, just more in your face and open when it comes to corruption. Politics is the business of gratifications. The more grafts the bigger the politics behind it.

In the U.S. and U.K. for example senators or lords would seek to pass bill and measures that provide certain benefits for particular groups and sectors from which he comes from. Back in the real street, these groups represented by powerful lobbies can carry their business with ease and guess where that senator gets his/her graft? Do you really think it's any different than what a DR senator does in the open fields here?

Same happens in the house of lords and elsewhere where there's a political system in place.

Politics is a business, not a public service. The only major difference is that in politics you're allowed to run the business into debt and losing money instead of making profit and nobody will fire you for it.

It's not the culture of corruption but the lack of enforcement!

Some will say it will never change, but that's beyond true.

The DR has changed a lot and will continue to change each year. Didn't the people activism force the government (elected) to abide for the 4% of the GDP to education? Where did that power all the sudden come from?

Didn't activists halted a company from excavating within Los Haitises? Didn't activism force the gov to incorporate a far reaching rider to the largest mining operation contract, in order to reverse the decades on end damages already impacting the area?

Imagine if tomorrow that activism freed itself from the political manipulation in some cases, and took to the streets to demand ousting a corrupted senator of public official for generally understood corruption?


Can it be done? I strongly believe we're soon to find out on this!

I'd have to ask you Pichardo if you've spent recent time in Costa Rica. Costa Rica has a much smaller population and different economy than the DR, but my experiences in Herredia and Grecia staying with locals show a country with better controls in place to prevent coruption and much better organization at almost all levels, whether it be education , traffic control, or medical care.

 

[Chip]

Actually, that stat would indicate that more people are punished for crimes in the U.S. than in D.R. Nothing more, nothing less.

You were the one that proposed the DR was third world because it's people are lawless so by you're very own definition the US would be third world too. If you want to reword you're statement now that' ok but that's not what you said.

With regard to being dishonest we Americans are apparently having a crisis as well based on the number of criminals we have in prison, drug users (10's of millions) and financial scams. Bottom line is what ails the DR ails a lot of other countries as well and shouldn't be singled out as something special in that regard, excepting it's politicians.

 

[mountainannie]

Here are some stats and graphs for those of us who like them

Based on the UN Index of human development

DR International Human Development Indicators - UNDP
Haiti International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

Mexico is higher than the DR International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

as is Costa Rico International Human Development Indicators - UNDP
and Panama International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

DR is a little higher than

El Salvador International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

and Guatemala International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

and Honduras
International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

About the same level as Belize
Belize International Human Development Indicators - UNDP

Your UN dollars at work!

(yes, I am underemployed!

 

[Big Dan]

You were the one that proposed the DR was third world because it's people are lawless so by you're very own definition the US would be third world too. If you want to reword you're statement now that' ok but that's not what you said.

With regard to being dishonest we Americans are apparently having a crisis as well based on the number of criminals we have in prison, drug users (10's of millions) and financial scams. Bottom line is what ails the DR ails a lot of other countries as well and shouldn't be singled out as something special in that regard, excepting it's politicians.

Chip,

You lost credibility with your "I never saw shake downs in DR by AMET, therefore it never happens" comment.

I have nothing more to argue with you, and I stand by what I have written here.