Elitism, what a shame

[bob saunders]

It seems that some people here are still mixing things up so perhaps you might answer the following questions

1)If you went into a restaurant for the 1st time and you noticed that the place was a bit tacky, would you order your food or would you pass and find another restaurant?. Perhaps they served the best food in the world. Would you wait to taste it?.

"'Some of the best food I've eaten as been from tacky hole in the wall restaurants, especial seafood"'

2)So you are in the hospital about to have an operation and the surgeon comes in dressed shabbily, his hair and beard unkempt and talking like an uneducated person. Would you not ask for time out and try to find out what the heck is going on?.

"'Yes, I would certainly be concerned"'

3)So you drive your child to a school everyday dressed up to the T in a Jaguar and everyone else drops their modestly dressed kid on a motorcycle. Would it not make sense if someone told you to 'tone it down appropriately' or perhaps you took your kid to another school?.

""I would tell them to stuff it where the sun don't shine, perhaps in different words. My children go to a school with children on welfare and others are children of millionaires. ""

Why would anyone expect anything different in this situation?

If the OP did not believe in elitism, then why is he sending his kid to an elitist school?. Why not send the kid to a tacky public school why she can be properly learn about humility and poverty?.

Whether anyone likes it or not, the fact remains that the rich would always continue to rule over the poor. Whether in the USA or the DR, whether in Azerbaijan or in Zimbabwe, the rich will always rule. Let nobody be deceived, even in america, we have an elitist system. You cannot go into politics unless you are rich or have the backing of the rich. That is the way it works here and in every other country in the world. The only difference is that we have a different system and some things are not so obvious and so they are played out differently.

The issue here is about doing something that no one else seems to be doing?. What else would you expect to happen?. As the popular saying goes ' No man is an island'

The issue here is about being smart and sensitive to your environment. It is about learning how to interact, to socialize, to network and to position oneself to take care of opportunities. It is about acting in a way that the people that really matter will see you as an equal and treat you as one.

So you are in a tough position and you need someone to pull strings for you. Do you call a motoconcho driver or you call someone in position of power that can pull strings for you and make things happen?. Whether anyone likes it or not, the rich and the powerful are the same. They are the people that make the laws and they can bend the laws for anyone that they want to favor and nothing will happen.

Everyone cannot be equal in this world. The communist/socialist system tried to prove that men could be equal, but just look at it's pathetic collapse.

For the reason that the OP already has those things that could work in his favor and make a difference, why does he not use it?. Would you work for your money or allow your money to work for you?

There is a big difference between being humble and having a poverty mentality.

Sholly

We all try, at least most us, to give our children the best education we can afford, we try to teach them right from wrong, give them a moral code. In my world this means teaching them to have respect for others, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly...etc. On any given day our son's friends visiting our place might be Cuban, Chinese, Iranian, Honduran, East Indian...etc There is no colour barrier, or wealth barrier in my house. I consider myself middle income $80k +. I agree with chip, but can also see ABZ points...etc. Chips wife is certainly not very dark so i would think that his daughter is much whiter than many of the students that may be teasing her about her colour. Unfortunately as she grows older she will be more influenced by her peers than her parents, so now is the time to start to work on that moral code.

 

[AZB]

Bravo Chip! Your daughter will thank you for it in the end - you've just help make the world a tiny bit better.

It's like saying: do what I say, but don't do what I do.
Chiri and chip live in 2 diffeent planets. Chiri has nothing in common with chip. I have met both of them.
AZB

 

[Chirimoya]

What presumption, AZB. What is it you think I do that contradicts this statement?

 

[AZB]

Chips wife is certainly not very dark so i would think that his daughter is much whiter than many of the students that may be teasing her about her colour. .

I do not think it has very much to do with skin color.
Many people simply reduce it down to skin color when they, in fact, are trying to conceal the bigger truth from the rest of us.
Listening to chip's spanish accent and his converation which revolves around his motoconcho friend from san jose de las matas, and his interaction with haitianos and the colmado owner where he seems to be drinking / buying beer 24/7. I have come to conclusion that his in-laws are no hache or lamas either, but, in fact, from campo of moca. His spanish accent and vocabulary stems from motoconchos and gomeros interaction. So what makes you think his daughter speaks any better spanish than he does? I am sad to think when she opens up her mouth, cibaeano campo accent comes out without her knowledge or control. This is what the poor girl has learned at home and this is what she has to communicate with when she is in school. The problem is that the parents have failed to raise their own standards to bring their kids up to the school's standard where she has to interact with kids who are not from the same background. She is in a tough position. I bet they even make her dress up in barrio girl's fashion. The little girl is not at fault, its the parents who are trying to send a girl to an environment where she is not trained to fit in yet.
Now when the girl has made her concerns clear to her dad, seems like the dad will do exactly opposite to make her life even worse in her school.
This is the price she has to pay for having a stubborn daddy who refuses to respect the rules of the society which are designed to protect her in the first place. I would certainly hate to have a daddy like that who is not in the same wavelength with the changing times in a latin country.
I am done with this thread. this thread has actually made me sick to my stomach.
AZB

 

[AZB]

What presumption, AZB. What is it you think I do that contradicts this statement?

you simply don't know chip. this is my main point.
AZB

 

[Chirimoya]

you simply don't know chip. this is my main point.
AZB

True, I don't know Chip in real life, but I empathise with his non-conformist spirit, even though it clearly manifests itself in a different way to mine. I haven't advised him to do anything I wouldn't do - basically to be true to his principles. I believe that trying to improve things - and that includes ensuring that members of the next generation treat their fellow human beings with tolerance - makes this nasty old world a slightly better place.

And let's raise a nice cold Presidente to non-conformists! What would the world be like if we all followed the flock like so many sheep?

 

[AZB]

Like I said, I am done with this thread.
AZB

 

[johne]

Like I said, I am done with this thread.
AZB

Thank G-D! Hope you SICK to your word.I for one won't miss your line of crapola.

 

[Steve Costa Azul]

Agree

Thank G-D! Hope you SICK to your word.I for one won't miss your line of crapola.

I concur!! :cheeky:
Steve

 

[jackieboo]

I agree a 100%! This is a "real-life" experience for your daughter, it might be tough, but she'll remember, and it might also influence the way she raises HER kids in the future...


I understand you very well. I also have kids. It is a thin line sometimes. But it feels much easier in a touristic area, since Dominicans are completely used to shorts&flip-flops wearing Gringos. Santiago is "old money", in that sense, they can be very snobbish (just like in good ol'Europe...)


It totally makes sense. Some of us left the land of our ancestors because we didn't really like to follow the general trend. Some of us actually have a long history of not doing things "like it says on the guide-book", and it usually makes the "sheeps" mad when they see us running in the opposite direction.
-Why should you follow the group suddenly, if you came all the way from a Southern USA State that wasn't allowing a black passenger to sit in the front part of the bus up to the early 1960's ?
-What would have AZB said in such a circumstance ?
-Who shall force you to be just another mean idiot like those snobs ?

Good move, Man... It's a thin line, and we can all see it everyday...

Heck of a good post squat!

 

[Sholly24]

I agree a 100%! This is a "real-life" experience for your daughter, it might be tough, but she'll remember, and it might also influence the way she raises HER kids in the future...

Off course, we can see that you are a real life joker. Tell me how much of your life you can remember now of the time when you were 6 yrs old?

Sholly

 

[Berzin]

Oh brother, here is the stuff I do:

1. Run a business in the US from here in the DR.
2. Pay all of the bills, incl. a US1200 house payment
3. Do 90% of the grocery shopping.
4. Do 90% percent of the errands.
5. Take my daughter and pick her up from school every day.
6. Take my daughter's lunch to her every day and sit with her usually a half hour until she finishes.
7. Help my daughter with the English part of homework.

Enough? I think my wife certainly has less to do than me - except watch telenovelas, next!

Right here is your biggest problem. Remember what Robert said? Adapt or die? You stated that you had to move from the US because your wife refused to adapt to the fact that things have to be done on time here. So it is more comfortable for her to be in the DR.

Big mistake.

You made it really easy for her, and her being from the campo is no excuse.

What I noticed, if I am correct, is that your wife knows what school your daughter goes to and has never mentioned to you that it may be inappropriate for you to dress down and drop her off on a moto or send the maid to drop off her lunch. Its' one thing to be from the campo, its another thing to keep acting like it once you are no longer there.

It may seem "down to earth" to you but it is not, and it is affecting your daughter. You need to realize how much peer acceptance plays a role in a young childs' life. You, having mentioned that you faced certain obstacles as a youth while in school, should be more sensitive than most to her plight.

You may not care what others think of you, but you are an adult. She is not. You want her, at such an early age, to commit social class suicide and risk being ostracized by her friends at school? And for what? So you can feel proud that she was a maverick and stood up to your perception of elitism?

You should understand that the DR is NOT the US. In the US, even amongst the elites in private schools, people are much more tolerant and accepting(even if it is grudgingly so) to a certain extent than in the DR.

Why? Because there are mixes, however small, of different types. As an example, the private boarding school I attended had students from over 40 states and 35 different countries. One of my roommates my first year there was from Lebanon of all places. The DR is much more homogeneous and thus the attitudes are that much more rigid and constrictive.

Being down to earth and humble is one thing, but this campesino stuff has to stop. Your wife has to get with the program and become responsible herself and begin to behave with the dignity accorded by her new class and social status.

Let her get dressed and take her daughter to school. Let her take the lunch over to school.

And ask yourself something-read again this list to yourself and ask what dominican behaves like this, letting the wife do nothing? When other domincans see this type of family dynamic it is no wonder they have such a warped sense of foreigners.

 

[Berzin]

For those of you who really are hell-bent on not wanting to understand how the real world works, please read "The Power Elite" By C. Wright Mills.

Once you understand the structure of power, which is pretty universal in every country, then maybe you will think twice about throwing this poor dominican girl into the quicksand by having her be a martyr for your naive cause.

She just wants to get along and be accepted by her friends. What is the big deal about that?

 

[miguel]

Que pena....

Very interesting thead......

I hope I had the time to post one of my LOOOONG posts but since I can't, I short one will have to do:

Chip's situation is NOTHING new in the DR.

I remember going to a nuns-run school in Santo Domingo, about '90' years ago, and I saw with my own eyes how the "rich" kids made fun of the poor kids. It was not only sickening, but also troublesome.

To this day, I can still remember the abuse suffered by those less fortunate.

Imagine this: if I was NOT the target and I still remember, can you imagine how the intended targets felt and still feel about those school years?.

As a father who tried/tries his best to teach his kids the "rights" and the "wrongs" of the world, I am a true believer that a kid's education starts and ends at home.

You can send your kid to the best school known to mankind but the fact of the matter is that the true life education is given at home!.

As parents we MUST do what's best for our kids and even if we have to do things we don't necesarily agree with, we MUST see things/issues through THEIR eyes.

For the life of me, I WOULD NEVER, EVER do anything to my kids that would make them a target in school.

If they are ridiculed in school, I would do WHATEVER is in my power to aliviate their pain. WHATEVER it takes. Even if I don't agree with it.

What every parent should understand (or remember) is that SOME school kids CAN be brutal!!. A little "your father dresses like a homeless" 'joke' (just to make an example) CAN last for YEEEEEARS!!.

When my son was in Junior High, he begged me to NOT drop him off in front of the school because a few kids were making fun of another kid whose father was doing the same thing.

What did I do?: I started dropping him off 2 blocks away and drove behind him all the way to school just to make sure he was ok.

When my daughter asked me, a few days ago, to come to her College so we can have lunch with some of her friends, the first thing she said to me was: "dad, PLEEEEEESE, leave your tie and suit at home and dress like you dress on weekends". She said her friends don't like to be around their fathers because they are not "hip like you" (yeah right, they just wanted free lunch, wahaha).

What did I do?: I went home after work, changed clothes and went to met them. Even if I didn't want to waste time going home first.

That's what we, as parents, are supposed to do for our kids....We have to make their lives easier.

A happy kid is a kid who will do well in school!.

It's ok to go against something you don't agree with as long as you tell your kids that even if wrong, you first priority is to make them happy. (Then you can go around and tell them that such behavior from them will NOT be tolerated).

One thing I don't understand is why Chip's wife doesn't take her to school. If she works, I can understand. If she doesn't, there's no excuses and SHAME ON YOU, CHIP, for NOT making her do something that should come naturally!!.

Anyways, like I say all the time:

The Dominican Republic is a different monster.....

A monster that will NOT adapt to you!.

Btw: I agree, 1,000% with AZB and Robert!!.

Btw2: So much for the "short" post, wahahaha!!.

Adios....

 

[Chip]

AZB

You are realy beginning to disappoint me.

First of all, you want to categorize me as some type of "chopo" for various reasons. Well according to you a chopo is defined by more or less one having a lowlife barrio "air" about them that sticks to a person that sticks with a person no matter whether or not they dress nice or have a nice car. In other woods you can take the man out of the barrio, but not the barrio out of the man.

I assume the barrio "characteristics"(explained by yourself many times) are people that are ex drug dealer from NY, or motoconchos that do their damned best to rob people and otherwise put people life into peril at every waking chance. They also hang out with lowlife barrio putas, who I assume sell their body on the weekends at the local car wash.

Furthermore, when these chopos have money, they automatically flaunt it with all types of nice clothes and cars.

Is there something wrong with this picture then? A chopo is someone who makes his life shamming people and hanging out with hookers, all the while looking to flaunt whatever material wealth he has.

I, on the other hand, am an engineer who robs no one, with a wife, who was a God fearing Christian when I met her, we have three daughters and even though I have a lot of "wealth" in Dominicans eyes, I hardly flaunt it, I don't drink my beer at the colmado, only at my house or family or friends, I have no girlfriends, prefer Sinatra to Bachata and otherwise get to bed by 12.

Somehow, you have gleaned from the two times that we had dinner that I am a chopo, one because I talked about the accent of my friend who is from the campo and because I was making fun of people who put the "s" where it doesn't belong. I assume , therefore, that becasue I dress like a chopo, and talk like a chopo, therefore I am a chopo.

Let me ask you a question AZB, are there any poor people here in DR who don't have nice clothes, who put the "s" where it doesn't belong, and who maybe have a beer and play dominoes at the local colmado that are NOT chopos? I somehow get the impression that many "fit" this category in your opnion. Talk about judging a book by it's cover! I assume it is a sin to be poor and have second hand clothes and maybe like to have a beer at the local colmado.

Furthermore, if you remember correctly, at the dinners we were at together, after making small talk I changed the topic to social justice and politics in this country. In fact, I am sure that I talked about that for at least 90% of the time at your house and would have talked about it more at cobraboy's get together if it weren't for you hijacking the conversation and trying to convince us that 911 was a CIA operation and that Americans have have secretly handed their sovereignity over to the Jews(give me a break).

OK, AZB, are there any poor Domincans here that aren't chopos? I think I know the question.

 

[jackieboo]

For those of you who really are hell-bent on not wanting to understand how the real world works, please read "The Power Elite" By C. Wright Mills.

Once you understand the structure of power, which is pretty universal in every country, then maybe you will think twice about throwing this poor dominican girl into the quicksand by having her be a martyr for your naive cause.

She just wants to get along and be accepted by her friends. What is the big deal about that?

I read this piece of shyte and other than Mr. Mills defining, again, the new world order. The post is discussing a 3rd grader.

There are those that want to create a 'better' world by giving children the ability to 'think' for themselves.

This is something that Mr. Miller doesn't address in his book. He obsesses on the Bushes and the Saudi Royal family more than he discusses the issues of a child in a third world country.

 

[Chris]

The post is discussing a 3rd grader.

A 6 year old is not a third grader.

My piece is that we should let the people who have children answer this. The rest don't quite get what it is about.

 

[AZB]

Put it like this, Chopos don't know they are chopos, if they did, they would try not being chopos.
Do I make sense?
Anyway, Like I said, I am done with this thread.
Bye.
AZB

 

[Sholly24]

why don't you just humor yourself?

Send me a list of public schools here in Santiago that have a strong English program and I'll look into them.

If I were to be living in Santiago then I could help but I do not so I have no idea.

I really did not want to get involve in this thread but honestly, I felt something for your daughter and I could not resist the urge to say something. There is nothing wrong with you trying to prove something but you do not need to get your daughter involved in it. The only thing a kid wants is to have fun and play with her mates and also have mummy and daddy to be proud of her. No kid wants to go to school to be made fun off. Kids do not know about racism, elitism, prejudice and other ills of this world and need to be left out of it.

If I had you in front of me right now, I probably might try to choke you till you agreed to change......if only for your daughter sakegre:

You will get other opportunities to fight against some of the things that you do not believe in but this is not that opportunity.

Why don't you just humor yourself a bit and do what AZB has told you to do?. Take it as an experiment. Something to amuse yourself with and try it probably for a few days/weeks and see what happens. The world will not come to an end and you will not go to jail nor will the moon fall down from the sky. You can still go back to your old ways after a few days/weeks. Do it an experiment to be looked at on in the future with a laugh. Amuse yourself.

Watch your daughter after a few days and see any changes. That alone will tell you whether you have done the right thing or not.

There a some people here who are giving you wrong advise and I suspect that they either have ulterior motives or are just clueless. Some are in the DR because they are running from somethings and they will continue to run. That is why they keep hallucinating and seeing things that are not there. If you know any of these people in real life, you need to look into their personal lives and if it is nothing to write home about, then there it is. They need to sort themselves out before they start giving advise to others.

You and your wife need to go to the school and drop her off in your nice car. When you go please dress very sharp....like people on a mission. When the rich snobs try to greet you, greet them back with a smile. What you are basically telling them with your action is 'You can mess with me but do not mess with my daughter'

Please go and put your best foot out there for that little girl.


Sholly

 

[Chris]

There is nothing wrong with you trying to prove something but you do not need to get your daughter involved in it. The only thing a kid wants is to have fun and play with her mates and also have mummy and daddy to be proud of her. No kid wants to go to school to be made fun off. Kids do not know about racism, elitism, prejudice and other ills of this world and need to be left out of it.

Thanks! And if your environment does not support the values that you're trying to teach your children, you, or your environment needs to change. The kid surely just needs to be a kid and does not need this pressure in order to learn a lesson. This is a small tyke we're talking about!