Elitism, what a shame

[alicious]

After re-reading this thread...I understand more the sort of situation in which it places a parent rasing their child in the DR...it's a bit of a delicate situation.

It's one thing for us adults (well most of us are of adult mentality anyways...:cheeky: ) to deal with the topic of Elitism and racism...

On the other hand...kids can be mean! If anyone remembers what it was like to be perceived as "different", or, how you treated kids that were "different" in school...

I have to agree that it may be beneficial, for your daughter's sake, to compromise a bit for her sake in out wards appearances (i.e. arriving on a motorcylce)...but I believe you should ONLY do this (compromise) if you think you can stress enough at home the value of self, over color/race issues.

As was mentioned, talk about this with her...it does make a difference how her mother views this whole issue as well, and how her mother responds to her if this subject is brought up.


It's important for her not to be set too far apart from the other kids at school (kids can be so cruel, and you don't want to subject her to unnecessary problems), while it's also vital for her to learn that the common views of other children as far as race/elitism are not right either...

Tough line to walk....I don't envy you....:ermm:

 

[sokitoumi]

its taken me thirty odd years to get over the trauma of what children can do to your self confidense at school..........id do everything i could to lessen her stress

 

[alicious]

I was on the other side, to be honest...I was not very nice to anyone who was different, or not in my group of friends, and I regret that now (I've grown up, as most kids do...with the exception of some, in certain countries, that seem to continue with this "class system" for the rest of their lives), but I know first hand how awful children can be, especially after teaching and seeing it first hand...
Any way to minimize her "difference" while being able to stress the importance of being proud of herself and her heritage (yes I know this may sound like a contradiction...but I hope it's understood what I mean..) is the best option!!

 

[DRob]

It's not a tough line.

When in Rome.... Period.

Chip can move to any number of towns in the states and, as an engineer, live in a great neighborhood with a great public school. And they won't care how she gets there.

Instead, he chooses to live in the DR, and have his daughter educated among people who have taken socioeconomic apartheid to comical levels.

But it's their country, and their choices, which seem ridiculous to us. If and when it changes, it'll be because 95% of the country is sick and tired of being sick and tired of being frozen out of opportunity and decent education because they're too poor, too dark and don't belong to the right family. Eventually they'll vote for - or otherwise empower - someone other than yet another "white" aristocrat who claims to be "por la gente" only during an election year. But that won't be for awhile.

In the meantime, Chip can continue to rage against the machine, and watch his daughter's self esteem get ground up beneath 500 years of racism and elitism that won't be changing to accommodate him, or he can conform to their customs, and teach her otherwise at home.

 

[alicious]

It's not a tough line.

When in Rome.... Period.

Chip can move to any number of towns in the states and, as an engineer, live in a great neighborhood with a great public school. And they won't care how she gets there.

Instead, he chooses to live in the DR, and have his daughter educated among people who have taken socioeconomic apartheid to comical levels.

But it's their country, and their choices, which seem ridiculous to us. If and when it changes, it'll be because 95% of the country is sick and tired of being sick and tired of being frozen out of opportunity and decent education because they're too poor, too dark and don't belong to the right family. Eventually they'll vote for - or otherwise empower - someone other than yet another "white" aristocrat who claims to be "por la gente" only during an election year. But that won't be for awhile.

In the meantime, Chip can continue to rage against the machine, and watch his daughter's self esteem get ground up beneath 500 years of racism and elitism that won't be changing to accommodate him, or he can conform to their customs, and teach her otherwise at home.

Agreed (to most extents)!!..but I think in the situation he's in (ok, in the country he's in) it's an especially tough line...

I, personally, don't know all his background, and would not comment on his choice of countries either. That is not my business... He lives in the DR for better or for worse at the moment, and that is the topic of this convo...

As we've covered, there are some ppl who are not so racist and class oriented in the DR, although not as common as one would hope...

The bigger issue here, I think, is how this affects his daughter in the long run..it's a struggle, he doesn't want to give into the pressures of appearance and elitism (which is wrong..yet prevailent)...however he also doesn't want his daughter to have a hard time..

And as it is...to some kids..no matter what your parents do, it's embarassing...lol:cheeky:

 

[sokitoumi]

when you see the children coming out of school im amazed to see how freindly they are to each other..........it was not like that in my day.... i always arrived home covered in spit after dodging bricks being thrown.... i even had to walk about a mile out of my way to avoid certain gangs.
every country has its problems

 

[alicious]

when you see the children coming out of school im amazed to see how freindly they are to each other..........it was not like that in my day.... i always arrived home covered in spit after dodging bricks being thrown.... i even had to walk about a mile out of my way to avoid certain gangs.
every country has its problems

Are you being serious???????? What country did you grow up in???????

 

[sokitoumi]

errrm the uk ...lol does it sound bad

 

[alicious]

errrm the uk ...lol does it sound bad

OMG!! Sounds worse than horrible!
Did you parents or teachers not do anything to stop this??????????
As a kid in school we never had any other children who would do anything like that at all!!!!...if we didn't like other kids we would just exclude them from games on break time...

And when I was teaching I would keep a very close to watch how they all treated each other on break time and after school, I wouldn't let them exclude or be rude to any of the other children (if they wanted to continue to have break time)!!!

I can't imagine children being that awful to spit on and throw things at another child!!!!! omigoodness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sokitoumi]

actually the teachers were just as bad.....they used to push you down the stairs or pick on you for the colour of your hair ...then of course everyone else joins in......of course im quite normal now ahem

 

[alicious]

actually the teachers were just as bad.....they used to push you down the stairs or pick on you for the colour of your hair ...then of course everyone else joins in......of course im quite normal now ahem

The teachers? You must be kidding...

 

[tflea]

Good One

Interesting to see so many opinions of some of the most interesting posters here; and some really coming out of the 'closet'. Hang tight Chip, it's your life.
But of all I've read I'll just say I agree with DRob, whom I don't know, and won't even venture into the waters. But I do hope there will be something else like this to read soon. Much like parlor talk of the centuries past, pre-television and beyond. Much appreciated, especially few personal attacks.

 

[Guatiao]

What's wrong with Dominican classism? What's wrong with classism in general? Reading this thread is somewhat sad because the posters describe classism as only a Dominican problem when in reality it's a human problem. Children first get exposed to classism is school because it's a primordial human instinct to separate the weak, different, etc; leaders & followers.

Is it worst in the Dominican Republic than other countries? I do not think it is; simply the rules are different. In Upper Middle - Upper class in DR: language, clothes, cars, parent's education, and other factors might determine a persons social standing within their own circle. Studying Chips original post, I think he did a couple of things that his daughter will be picked on; unfortunately the blame is on Chips shoulders, but the errors can still be corrected.

An important point that I want to state is that this is not a "Dominican" problem. In the "good ole USA" the same things happen in public and private schools, and in EVERY social class. A person in Upper U.S. society has the same standards as those in Upper D.R. society; best education, manners (in public), command of the language, clothes, cars, etc. In lower U.S. you find the same things as well; if you don't have the latest "bling-bling", cellphone, New Era cap, or pair of Air Jordans; you will be ridiculed. The difference is the objects or manners that make you an outcast. Junot Diaz's book points it out in Oscar, if Oscar had money he would probably have had friends and be accepted, but since he was born in the ghetto and spoke & dressed in different manners; he became a social pariah. I just want to readdress my point; do not make it seem as it is a social issue exclusive to the DR, or an issue that is created by pseudo-bourgeois Dominicans.

One final point. To all the 'foreigners" in DR, learn proper Spanish! Ghetto Spanish is not "cute", those poor people speak Spanish that way because they are uneducated and did not have the opportunity to go to school. It's the same with English, does an "immigrant" sound proper when he/she speaks like a rapper? NO! That's how you sound to us, and you only look like a fool to the educated folks. And do not add S where it does not belong; I've seen a couple of people spell fisnura, and I hate it when people misspell a word on purpose!

Guatiao

 

[bob saunders]

Guatiao, you are correct that classism is in every society, but for example in Canada children are taught from an early age to be inclusive, than everyone is equal, not to pick on people because of their colour, religion, economic situation...etc. In the DR it is treated as par for the course. My wife is Dominican and although not racist, she certainly is an education snob and an occasional appearance snob. Children imitate behavior that they see elsewhere and the need to belong to the group is very important. As a child (Grade 5-6) I went to a school where, when I arrived there the only other white boy came and gave me a big hug because now there were two of us and he wouldn't get picked on so much. I was in 2-3 fights a day until I proved I wouldn't take the crap. Good teachers will notice whats going on around them, but they can't see everything and correct every situation. Chip is going to have to decide and I think DROB answered with the best solution.
Guatiao, in answer to your query on Classism, it is wrong, simple as that.

 

[Chip]

And when I was teaching I would keep a very close to watch how they all treated each other on break time and after school, I wouldn't let them exclude or be rude to any of the other children (if they wanted to continue to have break time)!!!

Bravo, I can tell you the world would be a better place if teachers, and for that matter, parents thought like this.

 

[Chirimoya]

It's not a tough line.

When in Rome.... Period.

Chip can move to any number of towns in the states and, as an engineer, live in a great neighborhood with a great public school. And they won't care how she gets there.

Instead, he chooses to live in the DR, and have his daughter educated among people who have taken socioeconomic apartheid to comical levels.

But it's their country, and their choices, which seem ridiculous to us. If and when it changes, it'll be because 95% of the country is sick and tired of being sick and tired of being frozen out of opportunity and decent education because they're too poor, too dark and don't belong to the right family. Eventually they'll vote for - or otherwise empower - someone other than yet another "white" aristocrat who claims to be "por la gente" only during an election year. But that won't be for awhile.

In the meantime, Chip can continue to rage against the machine, and watch his daughter's self esteem get ground up beneath 500 years of racism and elitism that won't be changing to accommodate him, or he can conform to their customs, and teach her otherwise at home.

We, who in our home countries would have our children in more down-to-earth middle class social environments are sometimes put in this position in the DR. I know several expats whose employers included "fees for the top school in Santo Domingo" in the benefits package and their children did not have a happy time as a result. I also know one foreign mum who is sending her child there regardless, fully aware of the risks, justifying her decision by saying that it will be a character-building experience for her son to assert himself in the face of all that elitism/materialism.:ermm:

The trouble with your 'when in Rome' statement though is how far can this be taken? When you 'compromise' and start taking her to school in the jeepeta and she gets teased when it's not big/new/flashy enough? Do we also have to accept it when she says that 'people might think my mum is that colour' and then what? Once you set that precedent by not challenging that, what happens when the day comes that mum, who I know from what Chip has said is not white either, is not allowed to be seen in public with her daughter because she's 'too dark'?

My suggestions to Chip are as follows. Walk to school, it's less conspicuous than the motorbike and if anything should set a good example. Seek out friends who share your rejection of racism and ostentation - they do exist, someone like you probably already has some - and if they have children your daughter's age, encourage them to play together. If they are also at the same school, even better. Continue to inculcate values of tolerance and try to explain why these attitudes are unjust and shallow.

 

[AZB]

I can't believe some folks still don't have a clue of what we are talking about here.
All you folks who live outside of DR, please shut up and read and learn.
All motoconcho loving expats, please stop and listen.
This is really a very simple concept.
Here it goes, please open up the brain and eyes and just try to use your own brain here for once. I know we have many TV talk shows where (so called) experts think for you, but I guarantee you all that no one will get a brain tumor if you just stop and listen and use your own minds for once.

Chip is not talking about elite class or the ruling class. Since he is around gomeros and motoconchos and colmado folks (not to mention) his in-laws who call him culito, hahahaha, he thinks anyone else above that group is elite; but in reality he is talking about simply the middle class or upper middle class. The folks who have worked hard to get this far and try to maintain a lifestyle where a certain elements of society will not come in to interfere with their standard of living. Just like in USA and all over the world.
Chip is going against the grain and does what romans are not supposed to do when in rome. Why chip should be any different than any other gringo here? I see gringo take barrio trashy girls who are 1 step away from a hooker to fancy restaurants in santiago and have them sit next to damas (ladies). This is totally a no no yet the gringo never seems to figure out that his woman is totally out of the league with the rest of the crowd. Sadly this happens everyday here. So chip is doing the same, taking his innocent little daughter in a motorbike in poorly dressed fashion to school where the majority of kids are driven in late model cars and suvs. Is this fair to his little daughter? Who's fault is it that the daughter has to keep her head low in her class rooms when other kids poke fun at her? Its the dad's inability to understand the culture and customs around him.

Now Drob, I didn't hang out with president clinton's kids in USA and I certainly don't do that here. I didn't eat in Kennedy's house in USA so I certainly can't do the same here with the ruling class of this country. What I did do was socialize with lawyers, doctors, business men and other educated middle to upper middle class folks in NYC and atlanta. I do just that here.
My friend who drives a late model SUV is a engineer and also a professor in a University in santiago. He is not from the elite ruling class. Most middle to upper middle class folks in santiago have late model cars which cost about 50% more here than USA and live in nice areas, example: ceros de gurabo, villa Olga, los jardines.
If you compare them to gomeros (tire fixers) or motoconchos and campo folks (country folks) then yes, they would seem like the elite class. hahahahaha
This is not so much about the color of your skin or your blue passport that open up doors for you in this country. You have to follow the society rules and obey the customs and have the capacity to see this country with the eyes of dominicans, not with american or european mindset.
If you foreigners think you are educated and high class in your own country and then you come here and marry the woman who was cleaning your bathroom in the hotel where you were staying, or the first girl you met in a bar and fell in love with her and married her, then you may think you have found a good girl but you will not fool the dominicans who live here and know her type. To them, she will always be a ghetto trash. This is the way things are here and there is no way you will change it. This is the only reason why so many people (dr1ers) defend the poor and desperate folks who live on this island. Why? Because they are almost all either married to, dating or coming from this sort of background. Notice almost all Dr1 folks start out with, "my wife is coming from a very poor village, poor barrio, from village in moca, san jose de las matas, cotui etc etc. Notice the gringos always ask for direction to areas like cien fuego, monte rico, buenos aires etc etc. These are all dangerous ghettos in santiago and almost all the folks are dating girls from there. No wonder so many Dominicans who grew up in USA defend the same types of poor folks here. Why? They are all also from the same ghettos in DR.
This is why they hate the educated middle class folks who live better than they do in USA. This is why they call them elite too because to them, they are the elite class as compared to their own families who still live in ghettos.
You will not hear the middle to upper middle class folks in santiago complaining about the same issues here. You will not hear Robert in SD complaining about the same issues or other decent expats who have learned the ins and outs of this island. You will not hear Ricardo900 complaining about such issues in santiago. Mind you Ricardo900 is african american young man and as we speak, he is being driven around in a late model SUV by a sweet rubia (blondy) from santiago who owns her own fancy apartment and has visa to go anywhere. Is he complaining about racism here? I think he was smart enough to open up his eyes and learn the rules of the society only to make his trips more enjoyable here than the many who are still clueless.
So folks, there are no elite folks in questions here. Chip is simply having hard time interacting with the middle class. Imagine if he were to be in presence of the elites of this country. Hahahahaha
Oh yeah, I know he will throw in the Golf spin here.
The middle class to upper middle class to even rich folks are not animals, in fact, they are some of the nicest folks on this island. They talk to everyone and anyone when they have to. They will talk to chip even if he comes on his motorcycle. They will laugh at his accent and politely tell him he talks like cibaeno. Hell, they will even talk like him to make him feel better. But chip, this is only as far as you will go if you refuse to respect the rules of the society here.
have a nice day.
AZB

 

[Chip]

To all - thanks again for the advice.

Very briefly, I realize I may have overeacted somewhat, but then again those of you who have children probably understand that.

I will continue to take my daughter to school on the motorcycle and send the housemaid there(until the wife agrees to walk or use the motoscooter) when I am unavailable because of work.

I have decided this is the best thing although many apparently disagree. I prefer that my daughter not learn her "self worth" through the eyes of others, becasue I believe it is a dead end road. I was to an extent left out, especially in high school, beat up and picked on, and although it may have hurt my self image for some time, that passed. What it left me with is a desire to not do that myself and not judge people by their color or social status. To this day this is very important to me.

I feel sorry for people who think "going with the flow" is the way to go with everything. I aslo feel sorry for AZB, who promotes this elitist attitude, the very same one that would exclude him in some places in the US because of his color and race - maybe he will see that one day.

ciao

 

[Squat]

I may drift off-topic here, but the above post from AZB (whose opinion is right, even if I don't like it...) sounds like a poster add for the traditional Indian cast system...

Some of us don't give a damn, and have been rebels (aka outcast...) since their young days... Some of us fully understand that both AZB & Robert are right, but still willingly won't bow down and submit...

I agree with DRob and Chiri, especially with Chiri's last post.

Chip, don't bow down, don't be a submissive Gringo. Do what you feel is right to do. I think the option of walking to school (or parking the bike a couple of blocks before) sounds reasonable.

People will talk anyway ! If you're too fat, if you're too skinny, if you're too rich, if you're too poor... Live your life for you, and educate your daughter to do the same. It might actually be a painful life-learning experience. Being surrounded by little jerks who makes you feel bad because of your Mom's skin tone, or your Dad's bike... She has to overcome it. Don't let her become one of them ! Don't let her become another Dominican middle-class a$$hole who thinks he's better because driving a Lexus jeepeta. Teach her to think for herself. Teach her to be independent. Give her examples of such situation, and ask her what she would think...

I am so glad to be away from the cities...

 

[AZB]

I will continue to take my daughter to school on the motorcycle and send the housemaid there(until the wife agrees to walk or use the motoscooter) when I am unavailable because of work.

I knew the out-come. the man never had any intentions to listen to anything contrary to what he wanted to hear. he had his mind made up from the very beginning. He will not change his ways of doing things here just because he can't. I believed him when he said he is a "Ham". I truly feel sorry for his daughter who has to suffer the daily humiliation because dad is proud to be a "Ham" and refuse to see things the way they should be.
I think we should close this thread because nothing good will come out of it anyway. We all know where we all belong in society.
have a nice weekend everyone.
AZB