Elitism, what a shame

[BushBaby]

Whilst I detest the manner in which AZB has to ATTACK people (we have seen this over the years that he has been posting om DR1 - unnecessary aggression brought on by HIS lowly youth perhaps) there ARE some grains of truth in his words. Let me ask a question or two & see how 'the circumstances' might change peoples views.

Is there anyone here who would expect to be allowed to enter a Roman Catholic church wearing shorts & a tank top?

Is there anyone here who would expect to be allowed into the Ritz, Taj Mahal, The White House, .................. in fact ANY exclusive restaurant, musical recital, public office .............. wearing shorts, 'T' Shirt & flip-flops???

Is there anyone here who would attend an interview for an executive position in a medium or upwards sized company wearing the aforementioned clothing???

No, I thought not. And WHY is this - because they want to get in to the building concerned (or get the job) & need to show the RESPECT due to the owners/employers so as to achieve their aim. If you do not show respect to others - that is what you will get in return, ZILCH respect. And your offspring, friends & acquaintances will generally be affected by your attitudes to others.

I am NOT suggesting 'Bowing Down to authority' or 'Going with the crowd', I am talking plain respect for the rules of the community you are wishing to involve yourself in & then adjusting your ways of doing things so as to retain your own self respect - i.e. retaining YOUR principles within the criteria set by the fraternity you are trying to enter. 'T' shirt, shorts & sandals wouldn't go down to well in the corridors of Eton, Harrow, Princetown ................. You ADAPT your dress & speech to the environment you are in or wish to get in to!!

Show respect - receive respect
Show simpatico - receive simpatico
Show the willingness to 'mold' & you will receive the same (generally) in return.

Show anger, resentment of others, a desire to be aggressively non conformist - a desire to FIGHT the community rather than working with it, & you will be ostracised. There are many who come to post their 'Fights' here on DR1 who despite their good thoughts & intentions, suffer the same fate. ~ Grahame.

 

[Squat]

Grahame, I of course agree with your last post. I am not suggesting any lack of respect. I am simply suggesting to follow one's conscience instead of the general trend when both go into 2 separate directions.
This was the case in many wars: the government bowed down, but an inside resistance movement started, and eventually gave back freedom to its own people.
While I am certainly not comparing Chip's trip to school on his "115" to World War 2, I just wanted to illustrate the difference between being just another follower of the general movement versus being an independent spirit.
I don't think it has anything to do with wearing a T-shirt ans flip-flops in a church...
As far as disagreeing with some posters, it's all fair game, that's what forums are for. If we were all in agreement, it wouldn't worth a dime...
I appreciate AZB's posts and personality. He strikes me as a good and intelligent man. But that doesn't mean I have to share his opinions !

I do believe in respect and adaptation. But I don't believe in adaptation to practices you morally disapprove.

 

[DRob]

The trouble with your 'when in Rome' statement though is how far can this be taken? When you 'compromise' and start taking her to school in the jeepeta and she gets teased when it's not big/new/flashy enough? Do we also have to accept it when she says that 'people might think my mum is that colour' and then what? Once you set that precedent by not challenging that, what happens when the day comes that mum, who I know from what Chip has said is not white either, is not allowed to be seen in public with her daughter because she's 'too dark'?

I appreciate what you've said, Chiri, and from a purely ideological perspective, tend to agree with your contrarian ways.

That said, Chip's issue isn't one given to idealistic abstraction about universal equality. He's chosen to place his daughter in a school where he knows runaway elitism exists and festers. His open-minded worldview isn't going to change the attitudes or agendas of the other parents.

Look, those people don't send their kids off to elite schools for the superior education. Given the labor rates in DR, it would probably be more effective to hire a private teacher. They do it for networking purposes, so their kids can meet the "right" kids, who will grow up one day and be the right kinds of adults. They also do it to meet up with each other in the PTA activities, and further their own professional/social networks. They all have high expectations regarding acting in accordance (dress, language, occupation, material possessions, etc.,) with whatever class they think they're in.

And Chip knows that. Which is why his daughter goes to school with the well-heeled jeepeta crowd, where she can get a good education and meet (and possibly become) the future community leaders.

Then, with all this clearly spelled out, Chip decides to do things his way (which is fine), while expecting him and his daughter to be accepted and treated as equals (which makes no sense.)

Problem is his worldview is hampering his daughter's ability to fit in, and thus minimizing the benefit of attending the school. I mean, he's a gringo (strike one - and a few foul balls), he's been characterized rightly or wrongly by others as looking, acting and talking like a gomero (strike two), and his lovely daughter's mother is rumored to be a Haitian maid (strike three).

Again, Chip's chosen this lifestyle for himself and his family. With every action, comes a consequence. In this case, his daughter's happiness seems to be linked with walking her to school (or better yet, letting her mom do it), and playing the role. Half a mile is a short walk for a school age child, and it would do wonders for her physical, mental and social well-being.

After school, he can regale her with stories of the upcoming revolution at home.

 

[jackieboo]

Is there anyone here who would expect to be allowed to enter a Roman Catholic church wearing shorts & a tank top?

I went to the Vatican and wore shorts. I thought I'd show the same repect for them that they showed for the millions of people they slaughtered over the centuries.

Is there anyone here who would expect to be allowed into the Ritz

The one in Taihiti encourages it's guests to wear shorts.

Taj Mahal

Shorts, no problem. When was the last time you were there? I was there 2 years ago and as long as you have the money, you could go in naked.

The White House

This was a hard one as the 'tour' of the white house doesn't have a dress code other than you have to be clothed. Now for an official meeting with the grand idiot of all time I'd think about wearing something smart like a cowboy hat, ratty jeans and a large silver belt buckle.

.................. in fact ANY exclusive restaurant, musical recital, public office

What exclusive restaurant? Here? hmmm.............. Musical recital, shorts no problem. Public office.... I seemed to have had no problem getting my cedula in shorts, negociating with the major of Sosua in shorts (actually he was wearing shorts as well that day).....

Is there anyone here who would attend an interview for an executive position in a medium or upwards sized company wearing the aforementioned clothing???

Now the above was a little harder. If I was a software engineer and applying at Microsoft I might wear socks with my sandals..... If I was a lawyer interviewing for a partnership I might just have to put on socks and shoes.

No, I thought not. And WHY is this - because they want to get in to the building concerned (or get the job) & need to show the RESPECT due to the owners/employers so as to achieve their aim. If you do not show respect to others - that is what you will get in return, ZILCH respect. And your offspring, friends & acquaintances will generally be affected by your attitudes to others.

What century are you from? Who gives a damn if my friends and acquaintances think, if they truelly are my friends then they'll love me for who I am, screw the rest of them. Personal freedom is more important than what the 'general public' thinks about you.

I am NOT suggesting 'Bowing Down to authority' or 'Going with the crowd', I am talking plain respect for the rules of the community you are wishing to involve yourself in & then adjusting your ways of doing things so as to retain your own self respect - i.e. retaining YOUR principles within the criteria set by the fraternity you are trying to enter. 'T' shirt, shorts & sandals wouldn't go down to well in the corridors of Eton, Harrow, Princetown ................. You ADAPT your dress & speech to the environment you are in or wish to get in to!!

This one really got me. I attended a meeting at Princeton not too long ago and being it was a lovely spring day I had trouble finding ANY student dressed for 'respect'.

Of course who is brave enough to wear shorts in England what with the day glow transluecent legs and all?

Show anger, resentment of others, a desire to be aggressively non conformist - a desire to FIGHT the community rather than working with it, & you will be ostracised. There are many who come to post their 'Fights' here on DR1 who despite their good thoughts & intentions, suffer the same fate. ~ Grahame.

Oh boy, I guess you didn't catch Ghandi, Washington, Lenin, Castro, Cromwell, Mao, Duarte, Ho Chi Minh, Martin Luther, Jesus, Moses, Constantine or a numerous others in time. If only they had had a long boring sit down with you Graham then the world would just be dandy.

 

[BushBaby]

Grahame, I of course agree with your last post. I am not suggesting any lack of respect. I am simply suggesting to follow one's conscience instead of the general trend when both go into 2 separate directions.
This was the case in many wars: the government bowed down, but an inside resistance movement started, and eventually gave back freedom to its own people.
While I am certainly not comparing Chip's trip to school on his "115" to World War 2, I just wanted to illustrate the difference between being just another follower of the general movement versus being an independent spirit.
I don't think it has anything to do with wearing a T-shirt ans flip-flops in a church...
As far as disagreeing with some posters, it's all fair game, that's what forums are for. If we were all in agreement, it wouldn't worth a dime...
I appreciate AZB's posts and personality. He strikes me as a good and intelligent man. But that doesn't mean I have to share his opinions !

I do believe in respect and adaptation. But I don't believe in adaptation to practices you morally disapprove.

Taking the three emboldened statements in turn - I think we are basically saying the same thing.

1) I totally agree that one should follow one's own conscience - if what you are being asked to do is something that you disagree with you either walk away from it or fight it ........ you just have to accept the consequences of that decision.
2) Again I agree, it is just that some disagreements/harsh words go beyond the levels of aggression that I can approve of. In line with 1) above, I can say something or walk away from it. IF AZB is the good & intelligent man you think he is, doubtless he will see this & adapt (lower) his aggression & personal attacks in the future! Fair & reasoned argument I totally agree with, personal attacks of calling people names in public, I do not agree with.
3) As a non conformist in many ways myself ........ ABSOLUTELY right. I in no way wanted to infer that one should condone or support actions that are in conflict with one's own morales & standing. ~ Grahame.

 

[DRob]

This was the case in many wars: the government bowed down, but an inside resistance movement started, and eventually gave back freedom to its own people.
.

Squat,

Power concedes nothing without struggle.

Freedom isn't free, and is never "given." It must be taken, whether peacefully or through strength of arms, or else it means nothing.

We now return this thread to it's regularly scheduled topic....:glasses:

 

[AZB]

I fully support grahame #101 post above. Too bad english is my second language and in any case, I don't have a full command on any language yet. I am just not an articulate person with my keyboard. I couldn't have said it better myself.
I know my style is aggressive and insulting to many but I assure you that my intentions are pure and sincere. I would like to help people better interect with their host country and have an easier time living the life here as opposed to going against the grain. learn from our mistakes and the hard lessons we took to get ahead because if you learn from your own mistakes, the prices will be high and unneccessary.
When folks come to visit me in santiago, I always try to steer them to the right direction without asking for any favors in return. My friends know who I am and they can count on me, this includes the Dr1 folks.
AZB

 

[DRob]

What century are you from? Who gives a damn if my friends and acquaintances think, if they truelly are my friends then they'll love me for who I am, screw the rest of them. Personal freedom is more important than what the 'general public' thinks about you.

That's because you're a contrarian, Jackie, in virtually every aspect of your life. Heck, that's almost a prerequisite of being an expat. And that works for you, as you and your partner have carved out a life that makes sense for your relationship, business, and lifestyle preferences. And I salute that, and am happy for you.

That's the perogative of being a grown person. Which Chip's daughter isn't.

When you're around someone who belittles you, you can cuss them out, leave and not expect to be around them again. Not so with a third grader who has to go to the same school day after day and face the firing line.

Of course she has no true personal freedom. She's a kid. Going to a school where the kids and their parents look down upon her because of how her dad (and rumored mom) appear to them. An appearance that can easily be changed.

You've had a lifetime to get "hardened" to criticism for your life choices. She hasn't, and it's not fair to her.

 

[jackieboo]

That's because you're a contrarian, Jackie, in virtually every aspect of your life. Heck, that's almost a prerequisite of being an expat. And that works for you, as you and your partner have carved out a life that makes sense for your relationship, business, and lifestyle preferences. And I salute that, and am happy for you.

That's the perogative of being a grown person. Which Chip's daughter isn't.

When you're around someone who belittles you, you can cuss them out, leave and not expect to be around them again. Not so with a third grader who has to go to the same school day after day and face the firing line.

Of course she has no true personal freedom. She's a kid. Going to a school where the kids and their parents look down upon her because of how her dad (and rumored mom) appear to them. An appearance that can easily be changed.

You've had a lifetime to get "hardened" to criticism for your life choices. She hasn't, and it's not fair to her.

DRob I agree with you about the little girl however children can not be protected by our parents all of the time. Life isn't fair and although a lot of ones character is build in school the vast majority of that character is absorbed at home.

I was raised in a little podunk town in northwestern New Mexico during the 1960's. The town had three schools, elementary, junior high and high school. There were no options for private schools and certainly no options for different public schools. This was a place that you graduated with kids you started first grade with and because of that it was almost impossible to reinvent yourself.

This little girl (as long as she has support at home) will be fine. Sooner than later she'll start to see the world in a much more realistic light than her android classmates. Apparently many on this board would advise the OP to sell his child out to the masses rather than help her make her own decisions.

This draconian idea that just because others are, then you must be, could have been written by Mary Shelley, oh wait, she was a rebel.......

 

[Chip]

With do respect to all who think it is important to "dress up" and take my daughter to school in the yipeta and not have the maid take her to school the problem I have with that I will have just reinforced to my daughter that:

1. It is ok to judge people by what "things" they may or may not have.
2. The color of one's skin is important.

For those of you who are parents and raise your children this way don't be sorry if they turn out like real jerks. Then again, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

For those of you who aren't parents, have kids first and then get back with me.

Again, if I had "gone along" with all of the racists that wanted me to "fit in" back home in South Carolina, I would no doubt not be married to a black women and have three beautiful daughters.

Therefore, I have no problem with I, nor my daughter being ostracized for simply choosing the high road as opposed to what most of society may be saying. At the end of the day there is a right and a wrong, and what one does makes a difference.

So it could be South Carolina, Dominican Republic, Tahiti or Timbuktu, sometimes "local" customs are just not always right - it takes real courage to stand for one's convictions - money and the color of one's skin should never be a way to judge one's worth. I can't live everybodies life, just mine and make sure my daughters sees the difference.

 

[jackieboo]

With do respect to all who think it is important to "dress up" and take my daughter to school in the yipeta and not have the maid take her to school the problem I have with that I will have just reinforced to my daughter that:

1. It is ok to judge people by what "things" they may or may not have.
2. The color of one's skin is important.

For those of you who are parents and raise your children this way don't be sorry if they turn out like real jerks. Then again, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

For those of you who aren't parents, have kids first and then get back with me.

Again, if I had "gone along" with all of the racists that wanted me to "fit in" back home in South Carolina, I would no doubt not be married to a black women and have three beautiful daughters.

Therefore, I have no problem with I, nor my daughter being ostracized for simply choosing the high road as opposed to what most of society may be saying. At the end of the day there is a right and a wrong, and what one does makes a difference.

So it could be South Carolina, Dominican Republic, Tahiti or Timbuktu, sometimes "local" customs are just not always right - it takes real courage to stand for one's convictions - money and the color of one's skin should never be a way to judge one's worth. I can't live everybodies life, just mine and make sure my daughters sees the difference.

Here, here....

Wonderfully said. My father was from South Carolina (Charleston area) and he was a rebel as well.

Your daughter, if not already, should be proud to have such a father.

 

[Sholly24]

It seems that some people here are still mixing things up so perhaps you might answer the following questions

1)If you went into a restaurant for the 1st time and you noticed that the place was a bit tacky, would you order your food or would you pass and find another restaurant?. Perhaps they served the best food in the world. Would you wait to taste it?.

2)So you are in the hospital about to have an operation and the surgeon comes in dressed shabbily, his hair and beard unkempt and talking like an uneducated person. Would you not ask for time out and try to find out what the heck is going on?.

3)So you drive your child to a school everyday dressed up to the T in a Jaguar and everyone else drops their modestly dressed kid on a motorcycle. Would it not make sense if someone told you to 'tone it down appropriately' or perhaps you took your kid to another school?.

Why would anyone expect anything different in this situation?

If the OP did not believe in elitism, then why is he sending his kid to an elitist school?. Why not send the kid to a tacky public school why she can be properly learn about humility and poverty?.

Whether anyone likes it or not, the fact remains that the rich would always continue to rule over the poor. Whether in the USA or the DR, whether in Azerbaijan or in Zimbabwe, the rich will always rule. Let nobody be deceived, even in america, we have an elitist system. You cannot go into politics unless you are rich or have the backing of the rich. That is the way it works here and in every other country in the world. The only difference is that we have a different system and some things are not so obvious and so they are played out differently.

The issue here is about doing something that no one else seems to be doing?. What else would you expect to happen?. As the popular saying goes ' No man is an island'

The issue here is about being smart and sensitive to your environment. It is about learning how to interact, to socialize, to network and to position oneself to take care of opportunities. It is about acting in a way that the people that really matter will see you as an equal and treat you as one.

So you are in a tough position and you need someone to pull strings for you. Do you call a motoconcho driver or you call someone in position of power that can pull strings for you and make things happen?. Whether anyone likes it or not, the rich and the powerful are the same. They are the people that make the laws and they can bend the laws for anyone that they want to favor and nothing will happen.

Everyone cannot be equal in this world. The communist/socialist system tried to prove that men could be equal, but just look at it's pathetic collapse.

For the reason that the OP already has those things that could work in his favor and make a difference, why does he not use it?. Would you work for your money or allow your money to work for you?

There is a big difference between being humble and having a poverty mentality.

Sholly

 

[Chip]

If the OP did not believe in elitism, then why is he sending his kid to an elitist school?. Why not send the kid to a tacky public school why she can be properly learn about humility and poverty?.

Send me a list of public schools here in Santiago that have a strong English program and I'll look into them.

My family deserves to have my daughters learn English becasue they want to speak with them and know them one day.

 

[Rocky]

Heck of a good post, Sholly.

 

[sokitoumi]

It a good job we have some enoromous brains in here to sort out our problems

Things could be worse she might have to go to school in those horrid red socks they wear in Puerto Plata

 

[Squat]

With do respect to all who think it is important to "dress up" and take my daughter to school in the yipeta and not have the maid take her to school the problem I have with that I will have just reinforced to my daughter that:

1. It is ok to judge people by what "things" they may or may not have.
2. The color of one's skin is important.

I agree a 100%! This is a "real-life" experience for your daughter, it might be tough, but she'll remember, and it might also influence the way she raises HER kids in the future...

For those of you who are parents and raise your children this way don't be sorry if they turn out like real jerks. Then again, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

For those of you who aren't parents, have kids first and then get back with me.

I understand you very well. I also have kids. It is a thin line sometimes. But it feels much easier in a touristic area, since Dominicans are completely used to shorts&flip-flops wearing Gringos. Santiago is "old money", in that sense, they can be very snobbish (just like in good ol'Europe...)

Again, if I had "gone along" with all of the racists that wanted me to "fit in" back home in South Carolina, I would no doubt not be married to a black women and have three beautiful daughters.

Therefore, I have no problem with I, nor my daughter being ostracized for simply choosing the high road as opposed to what most of society may be saying. At the end of the day there is a right and a wrong, and what one does makes a difference.

So it could be South Carolina, Dominican Republic, Tahiti or Timbuktu, sometimes "local" customs are just not always right - it takes real courage to stand for one's convictions - money and the color of one's skin should never be a way to judge one's worth. I can't live everybodies life, just mine and make sure my daughters sees the difference.

It totally makes sense. Some of us left the land of our ancestors because we didn't really like to follow the general trend. Some of us actually have a long history of not doing things "like it says on the guide-book", and it usually makes the "sheeps" mad when they see us running in the opposite direction.
-Why should you follow the group suddenly, if you came all the way from a Southern USA State that wasn't allowing a black passenger to sit in the front part of the bus up to the early 1960's ?
-What would have AZB said in such a circumstance ?
-Who shall force you to be just another mean idiot like those snobs ?

Good move, Man... It's a thin line, and we can all see it everyday...

 

[AZB]

we are all wasting our time. If you guys have met chip, you would know that its impossible for him to change for better as he is so proud to be a campesino. he loves to talk like a cibaeno example, Carne = caine, maldito = maidito, mas = ma, todo = to, nada = na, esta = ta (como tu ta?) etc etc. I have never seen a dominican or a foreigner who is so proud to speak incorrectly.
I can only imagine where he learned his spanish from and from whom. I simply hope his daughter doesn't speak in the same way. I hope the apple does fall far from the tree in this case.
I am not even sure why he even put in the efforts to start this thread when he already knew he can't change his way of doing things? Lets just pray for the little girl , she is the real victim here.
AZB

 

[Squat]

Everyone cannot be equal in this world. The communist/socialist system tried to prove that men could be equal, but just look at it's pathetic collapse.

I actually was expecting a "McCarthy" type guy to show up with this one... Let me guess, you're American, and you vote Republican ?

For the reason that the OP already has those things that could work in his favor and make a difference, why does he not use it?. Would you work for your money or allow your money to work for you?

It all boils down to your personnal choice. In the early 1940's most French chose to support the Nazi regime, as it then seemed the best choice. Some didn't and were treated like fools. "You can't fight the Nazis, they are the winners. Such is life. Be a Nazi supporter, teach your kids to do so, otherwise you will stay a loser for you whole life..."

There is a big difference between being humble and having a poverty mentality.

That strikes me as such a dumb comment... What can I say ? Maybe you can re-phrase that one, or give a real-life example...

 

[NALs]

Is it worst in the Dominican Republic than other countries? I do not think it is; simply the rules are different.

An important point that I want to state is that this is not a "Dominican" problem. In the "good ole USA" the same things happen in public and private schools, and in EVERY social class. A person in Upper U.S. society has the same standards as those in Upper D.R. society; best education, manners (in public), command of the language, clothes, cars, etc.

Guatiao

I agree 100% with this comment, and every post by AZB and Robert.

However, I think the vast majority of expatriates in the DR, or at least those who are members of DR1 and hail from the U.S., didn't belong to similar circles in their country of birth as they do in the DR, or bump into on more than a few occasions in the DR and perhaps that explains their "shock and distaste" and the consequent comparison or tendency to make it seem as if its something unique to the DR or to Latin America.

I see no difference between upper class / upper middle class Dominican attitudes and those of their counterparts in the US. Anyone who has ever been to Greenwich, CT; for example, would know exactly what I'm talking about and would feel like in upper crust Santiago or Santo Domingo, minus the weather.

Its the same thing everywhere, but people need to be careful that the comparison they make between their experience in the DR and their experience in their country of birth are apples to apples comparisons and not apples to oranges.

More often than not, I think the comparisons are apples to oranges and that explains the "its only the DR" or "that's how it is in the DR" mentality, which implies that its not like that where they come from. At least in the case of the US, such comment is just incorrect.

As far as I can see, its identical.

Even the reactions of many here are identical to the reaction of many outsiders who move to Fairfield County, CT and fail to adjust, they often leave in disgust of all the suppose elitism and "snobbish" attitudes that predominate in many of these towns.

Its the same thing.

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

Thanks for that analogy, Nals. I am sure there are people in Greenwich or Fairfield County who are not snobbish and elitist, and even though they are in the minority, in the unlikely chance that I were to move there, I would concentrate on getting to know them. Just like I did in every place I've lived in, including the DR.

Bravo Chip! Your daughter will thank you for it in the end - you've just help make the world a tiny bit better.