P.L.D- Talking about liberation? What liberation?

[Chirimoya]

It would be negligible. The DR still spends less per capita (and per capita calculations do not include illegals) on education than anywhere else in Latin America. That is what needs to change.

Bleating about the Haitians is just diverting attention and freeing the governments (note use of the plural) from responsibility.

 

[NALs]

I wonder, though, is the illegal Haitian figure balanced out by the number of Dominicans who are (a) out of the country and benefiting from the US/Spanish/Canadian etc state education systems; and (b) the number of Dominican children in the private education sector - which is not just the elite, there are plenty of private schools in lower middle class and even in poor areas.

A. Probably not, but interesting idea.

B. More probable, but for this we need to see the data.

I don't want to turn this into a Haitian migrant oriented thread, we had plenty of those and I think everyone knows where everyone stands on this (at least the old DR1ers do).

However, I just want the average DR1er to think about the possibility unchecked immigration is having on various things in the DR, since there seems to be an air of disregarding such effect.

For example, health care. People are saying the investment is horrible and yet, how much of the resources allocated to public health has been siphon off by illegal immigrants who were not taken into account?

What would happen if those illegals were not given the resources in health/education/whatever that was not meant to go to them in the first place?

Of course, the best option from all of this is to increase the spending in education/health/etc to support the ever increasing role of illegals in those institutions.

But, doing such thing unscrupulously could lead the DR to educating and taking care of the population for which the country was indowed with in addition to those of its neighbor.

I don't agree sovereign nations should take care of their own and their neighbors problem and much less agree on the notion of a free rider nation from another nation that is not necessarily rich to start with....

Besides, it's not as if immigrants from any of the neighboring countries of the DR are the equivalent of Palestinians. I mean, with the case of Haitians they do have a home with a government that is supposed to be taking care of them.

That their government has failed so much is not an excuse for the DR to charge off with their deficits along with DRs own demands from it's own population.

(btw: Free rider is an economic term meaning gaining the benefit without sacrificing much. Thus a country could get its masses educated by a neighbor or international organization without having to spend a nickel on education itself. Between Haiti and DR, DR is doing more than just educating Dominicans....)
-NALs

 

[NALs]

It would be negligible. The DR still spends less per capita (and per capita calculations do not include illegals) on education than anywhere else in Latin America. That is what needs to change.

Bleating about the Haitians is just diverting attention and freeing the governments (note use of the plural) from responsibility.

The fact that you say "it would be negligible" remains to be seen (if we ever get the chance). However, it also says that you recognize an improvement in per pupil spending is utterly imminent under such proposal.

However,

You mentioned "per capita spending". Averaging the amount spent on education as a whole of the entire population (ie. per capita) is rubberish, due to the fact that it does not takes into account the actual amount of students or school age children in the country. To make comparisons on such case is as good as not making a comparison at all.

However, comparisons based on per pupil basis is more appreciable and on the mark.

The number of pupils are taken from enrollments in the previous year and each year more and more illegals makes it into the system which leads to the problem being discussed...

Regarding your final comment, I usually accept such thing are ways the opposition of such debate use in order to either avoid talking of a very real problem of illegal migration affecting the country and/or is a way of indoctrinating would be pro-immigrant supporters by telling them what to expect from the opposition and then telling them how to react to such expected response.

I've said this multiple times in the past, mentioning that it is diverting the attention from "real" problem will do little to quiet down those who see the effect of all the problems, not just the cherry picked ones. Afterall, it's not as if anyone is not noticing all the problems the DR is plagued with!

If you doubt that previous sentence, go on and ask your Dominican friends and those daily sentinels you probably see on the same corners in Santo Domingo day in and day out. Go see if they don't know of all the problems the DR is plagued with, including illegal migration which is one problem pro-migrants like to just brush under the rug and forget about.

For that reason they use indoctrinating statements such as the one you ended your post I have quoted.

I'm not blaming you for using such statements, because I don't think your intention was to create a level of partiality and intolerance in the minds of people who want a balanced view on all the problems affecting the DR. But, it goes without mentioning that such statements do exactly what they claim... they divert attention away from one problem in order to focus on the problems the supporters of such indoctrinating statement believe to be of more importance.

A good example would be pro-immigrants agreeing on putting a blind eye to the problem of illegal immigrants but disagreeing on discussing the effects those illegals are having on the country they are entering.

I understand this is a two-way street, so please let's not treat it as one way deal.

-NALs

 

[Chirimoya]

I stand by my statements. The Haitian issue is a diversion from the real problems the country needs to tackle.

If there is a Haitian 'problem' in the DR it is partly a Dominican-created problem - the Dominican employers who are only too glad to employ cheaper labour, the Dominican border guards and Dominican people traffickers who profit from helping them across the border illegally, and the Dominican authorities who are lax when applying the law.

 

[NALs]

I stand by my statements. The Haitian issue is a diversion from the real problems the country needs to tackle.

If there is a Haitian 'problem' in the DR it is partly a Dominican-created problem - the Dominican employers who are only too glad to employ cheaper labour, the Dominican border guards and Dominican people traffickers who profit from helping them across the border illegally, and the Dominican authorities who are lax when applying the law.

That's fine, you are entitled to your opinion as much as anyone else is to theirs.

But, just give what I've stated some thought, at least as much as I have done to yours which btw, I have been doing since the first Haitian-DR debates I have been engaged with you and others over the years. The goal here is to come to a conclusion that reflects reality the most, not just a conclusion that either makes sense or makes one's own opinions validated and thus, "unchallangeable" from those who propose a possibility of a different motive for why things are the way they are.

However, I must say you left a few people out of your final statements as culprits for the illegal immigration problem:

1. The pro-immigrants who scream to the top of their lungs against the DR authorities the moment the authorities engage in mass deportations.

2. SOME foreigners who sympathyze more with the way Haitians are treated in a foreign land rather than the way they are treated in their own land which former slaves secured for them with much luck and bravery.

3. International organization which threaten the DR with penalties everytime the DR attempts to implement a solution to the illegal migrants problem.

and 4. The prevailing thought in many circles that the DR must take care of Haiti's problems and whatever the effect such action will be to the DR is simply not important.

I could have focused on the domestic causes of this problem, but since you did that already, I thought it would only be fair to pin point to those other things that are exacerbating the problem of illegal immigrants.

I mean, Prieast Roccoy (or however his surname is spelled) sure did quite an injustice to the Dominican government, Dominican authority, Dominican sovereignity with his falsifications of legal documents to turn illegal Haitians into "legal" Dominicans and securing public housing units meant to go to Dominicans and poor legal migrants to illegal immigrants. On top of this he made it by force and left the country leaving behind the Dominicans and Haitians fighting like cats and dogs while he "relaxes" and talks garbage from the comfy confines of Belgium!

But, oh no, pro-immigrant supporters think of him as a good man and the Dominican government as evil when the government attempts to deport the Haitians.

The DR is damned if it does and damned if it does not. Since either way its damned, I prefer the first rather than the latter.

Since this is way beyond the tangent of this thread, let's end this mini-debate here.

The basic premise is this: Problems are more than meets the eyes and for such reason, one must be careful to not discount one potential cause over another. It's best to see it all in its entirety in order to fully understand the problem and then find an appropriate solution.

The impact illegals are having in the DR has both positive and negative qualities.

If we are going to talk about the failures of the DR, the immigrant component must be addressed, even if its simply to offer a fair and balance picture of reality in order to give the reader the chance to come to their own conclusions. This means no indoctrinations of any kind and for this, I always bring to the forum the otherside no one wants to talk about.

Have a nice Tuesday. :smoke:

-NALs

 

[Texas Bill]

OK Everyone-----

Now that the original thread has been diverted from it's original theme by way of a "smoke screen" to that of Haitian illegal immigrants, let's get back to the original theme, shall we???

The theme deals with the proposition of re-writing the Constitution of the DR.

Question???

What does the re-writing consist of?
What are the intended changes to be addressed?
What form will the government take under the new changes?
Will the government be recognizable relative to the existing one?
Will there be a Bicameral System or a Unicameral System.
What will be it's function?
Will there be a distinctive seperation of Powers between the Administration, the Legislative and the Judicial or will the latter two hold a subservient position to the first?
Will there be many or few new laws defining in detail the limits of each body?
Will the body of existing laws be changed drasticaly to accomodate the new Constitution?
What will be the role and authority of the Military and Law enforcement bodies?
Will the Military remain under the direct control of the Chief of State as Commander-in-Chief or will that body be under a Minister within the Administrative body?
Will control of the Police body be relagated to the municipalities and divisionally assigned to each of those bodies?
Will the municipalities be autonomous in budgetary matters and allowed to impose local taxes in support of their responsibilities?

These are but a few of the extremely important issues and questions that come to mind. Have any of you really thought through the problems faced in the formation and implementation of Constitutional Reform with all its obvious and hidden implications?
Perhaps so, perhaps not.
Give it some very deep thought, people, then return with discussions that REALLY speak to the ISSUES.

Did I give all of you enough to think about? If not, PM me and I'll go into MUCH MORE DETAIL.

Now, back to the original thread!

Texas Bill

 

[El Vegano]

My 2 cents.

The Constitutional Reform does not have to go too far. Our system, much like the U.S's, seems fine to me. Legislative Branch with House of Deputies (congressmen) and a Senate, Executive Branch and Judicial Branch.

Judicial - The main change we may need is getting them to be totally independent from both the Executive and Legislative branches and clean out the corrupt judges. Tough job.

Executive - Make the presidential period ONE TIME ONLY of 6 years. No reelection.

Legislative - Both Deputies and Senators elected together with the Executive for 6 years, also with no reelection.

National Police - Disband it completely and establish a National Guard with
well-trained upper echelon and also a lower echelon coming from the military's ranks where discipline is much stricter.

Border Patrol - Establish an elite border guard, well-paid and tightly controlled to avoid the massive illegal traffic we now have with the corrupt Ejercito Nacional (army).

Armed Forces - Remain the same under the Executive as Commander in Chief.

Provinces - This ridiculous situation of 32 provinces (and soon a 33rd) in a country of 48,000 sq. kms. makes no sense. Cuba has had 10 provinces forever and they are much bigger than the DR. Cut back to a small amount
of provinces (10 or 12) and increase senate members to 2 instead of 1 per.
Many of the newest provinces can become what they were before, municipalities. This cutback would not really affect the membership in the legislative branch and would only reduce the amount of governors.

Going back to the start of this thread and a knock on the PLD. Can someone intelligently suggest that we have any other alternative to this 'menos malo'
(less worse) political party? President Leonel Fernandez is alone at the top and no one else comes close to him outside of his own party. There are really no options since the PRSC, Balaguer's personal party, is not a viable option anymore and the PRD has been, is and always will be a total disaster because it represents the worse of the DR.

Thank God for the PLD and Leonel Fernandez at this time of our history.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Nal’s there is no “Interesting paradox” to the situation in Cuba. I see it as a repeat of the past situation here in the DR under Trujillo. All indications are that Trujillo, like Castro, was keen on education. As Trujillo had many groups and organization conspiring against him so too does Castro.

As to why the Cubans haven’t revolted yet is due to the fact that they live in a constant state of fear of the government as did the Dominicans under Trujillo. They have seen on television and by radio how the rest of the world is but due to their state of fatalism, similar to that held by present day Dominicans, they believe there is nothing they can do to change their lot in life. The few that know otherwise are in prison, executed, live in other countries and plan or live in Cuba and plan against the government. All this talk about other countries and the immigration issue really has no relevance in the ongoing discussion.

I wish to point out something concerning education to all of you that are reading this thread. Please read this very carefully because it explains the problem throughout the world where education is lacking;

Regardless of how much money per capita is spent, if legal and /or illegal immigrants are or are not included, will have no bearing on the finished product if that which is or is not taught isn’t changed. If you supply the Dominican children with new schools, new books, new uniforms, new desks sufficient paper and pencils, better paid teachers and continue to teach as they are presently teaching then you will still end up with uneducated, non reading and writing students. Granted they may be well dressed, well supplied and well feed children with well paid teachers but they will be exactly like the children presently if you don’t make the necessary changes in the curriculum of what’s being taught.

Think about that for a few minutes. After that thought process think about how cheaply, at almost no cost, the curriculum can be changed. If the children are taught better then regardless of the other monies spent or not spent you end up with a better finished product and that is what you want.

Rick

Sorry Texas Bill I failed to see where this thread was about the reform of the constitution but yes that does fit into "liberation" and you bring up some very good and important points.

 

[arturo]

the Haitians are not to blame

Correction,

In the DR there is not only education for the DOMINICAN masses, but also for the HAITIAN masses as well.

In fact, ever since the requirement for Dominican citizenship and/or legal status for a child to be taught in Dominican public schools the number of children from illegal immigrants has skyrocketed, particularly along the border the region.

The amount spent on education has not changed that much, which means the decreasing per pupil spending on education is a result of an increase in the number of students.

Now, if only Dominican public schools were truly for Dominicans and LEGAL migrants, maybe things would be different.

But people think the government has a money tree in the backyard somewhere.... that's what Hipolito believed and look what happened!

-NALs

Here is why I think it's nonsense to ascribe the intentionally poor education system to Haitian immigration: I've already pointed it out that relatively expensive private colegios (where Haitian migration plays no role whatsoever, not even in the misguided xenophobic paranoid minds of die hard Dominican "nationalists") offer little more in terms of international standards of quality (and yes, there are minor exceptions at all levels of the local system).

Texas Bill will likely appreciate the historical parallels between governments and other power structures over the course of history using ethnic minorities as scapegoats to divert attention away from negligence based social problems (pre WWI & WWII Europe, late 90s Balkan states, early 90s Africa, late 80s Russia/Chechnya, and of course, post 1804 Hispaniola.

This is not a perspective that is stressed in the Santillana published Civica textbooks that are prescribed by Dominican law.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Arturo said “This is not a perspective that is stressed in the Santillana published Civica textbooks that are prescribed by Dominican law.”

And the proper perspectives are not stressed in the Santillana published Math textbooks nor the Santillana published Lengua de Español textbooks etc.

Curriculums in what is taught, what is read and studied needs to be changed.

Thank you Arturo.

Rick

 

[bob saunders]

Originally Posted by NALs
Correction,

In the DR there is not only education for the DOMINICAN masses, but also for the HAITIAN masses as well.

In fact, ever since the requirement for Dominican citizenship and/or legal status for a child to be taught in Dominican public schools the number of children from illegal immigrants has skyrocketed, particularly along the border the region.

The amount spent on education has not changed that much, which means the decreasing per pupil spending on education is a result of an increase in the number of students.

Now, if only Dominican public schools were truly for Dominicans and LEGAL migrants, maybe things would be different.

But people think the government has a money tree in the backyard somewhere.... that's what Hipolito believed and look what happened! end quote

I don't understand your first statement because it is a contradition. At my wife's school in Jarabacoa as well as the public schools and catholic schools in Jarabacoa, they will not let a kid go to school without a birth certificate, no matter whether they are Dominican, Haitian, American...etc. So how do illegal immigrants, mainly Haitians, get birth certificates in the DR, other than illegally. I guess things do not operate the same throughout the DR,the quality of Education varies, as it does from state to state or province to province.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Rtejeda,

You have been a member of this board for 4 days and you have started 3 threads and 8 posts.

In your first post you state “# 1 Dominicans are more disgaged than ever before from the political process, participation in voting was only 60% on the last election, of May 16Th, 2006. This is due to the fact that the current government (P.L.D) administration is not really representing the best interest of the electorates- the Dominican people.”


Do you even have any idea as to how many Dominicans vote each election?

According to the JCE;
2006 election 56.5 % voted 2,991,031 people voted
2004 election 72.8 % voted 3,613,700 people voted
2002 election 51.4 % voted 2,297,835 people voted
2000 election 76.1 % voted 3,236,906 people voted
1996 election 2,903,859 people voted
1994 election 3,015,750 people voted

List of DR political parties here doesn’t show your PED.

According to your autobiography here it seems to attest to your being well schooled. After a check I have found 45 English grammatical errors in your eight posts.

In lieu of answering the questions that I have asked you we have been bombarded with your trumpery and your contumelious attempt to denigrate the PLD party. Rather than being an interlocutor and therefore acquiring an estimable impression from us you continue to place yourself in an odious position.

Rick

 

[drbill]

TRUMPERY???
CONTUMELIOUS???
I nearly finished HIGH SCHOOL and I don't know what the heck you mean...!

 

[Rick Snyder]

contumelious - Rudeness or contempt arising from arrogance; insolence. An insolent or arrogant remark or act.

trumpery - Nonsense; rubbish

 

[drbill]

I hate to be immature in public, but I can only conclude that Mr. Gary Short has some very hi-tech stuff that steals or, or ... as the fish who swam into the cement wall said, "dam".

 

[gary short]

WWWWWOWWW..........MMMMAAANNNN........... it's like......a parallel universe.........

 

[Texas Bill]

Nal’s there is no “Interesting paradox” to the situation in Cuba. I see it as a repeat of the past situation here in the DR under Trujillo. All indications are that Trujillo, like Castro, was keen on education. As Trujillo had many groups and organization conspiring against him so too does Castro.

As to why the Cubans haven’t revolted yet is due to the fact that they live in a constant state of fear of the government as did the Dominicans under Trujillo. They have seen on television and by radio how the rest of the world is but due to their state of fatalism, similar to that held by present day Dominicans, they believe there is nothing they can do to change their lot in life. The few that know otherwise are in prison, executed, live in other countries and plan or live in Cuba and plan against the government. All this talk about other countries and the immigration issue really has no relevance in the ongoing discussion.

I wish to point out something concerning education to all of you that are reading this thread. Please read this very carefully because it explains the problem throughout the world where education is lacking;

Regardless of how much money per capita is spent, if legal and /or illegal immigrants are or are not included, will have no bearing on the finished product if that which is or is not taught isn’t changed. If you supply the Dominican children with new schools, new books, new uniforms, new desks sufficient paper and pencils, better paid teachers and continue to teach as they are presently teaching then you will still end up with uneducated, non reading and writing students. Granted they may be well dressed, well supplied and well feed children with well paid teachers but they will be exactly like the children presently if you don’t make the necessary changes in the curriculum of what’s being taught.

Think about that for a few minutes. After that thought process think about how cheaply, at almost no cost, the curriculum can be changed. If the children are taught better then regardless of the other monies spent or not spent you end up with a better finished product and that is what you want.

Rick

Sorry Texas Bill I failed to see where this thread was about the reform of the constitution but yes that does fit into "liberation" and you bring up some very good and important points.

Rick:

Sorry I put my two-cents worth in this area. Really thought it was about the "New Constitution" at the begining. I now see my mistake and apologize to all concerned for my faux pas.

Texas Bill

 

[drbill]

Pure trumpery is what I say, nothing more, nothing less: TRUMPERY, damn you!

 

[Rick Snyder]

Drbill, hehehehehe, you have a way with words.

 

[Rick Snyder]

Texas Bill I firmly believe that the Dominican constitution must be changed. I am more then willing to involve myself in such a discussion as it is one part of the liberation that the Dominican society needs.

With the constitution as it is presently written there is too much power bestowed the president when he has full control over both the police force and the military force. Another major discrepancy is the lack of checks and balances between the three branches.

I could go on and on but it's late so good night.

Rick

Edited to correct spelling error.