Policing Tourists

chico bill

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May 6, 2016
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Policing makes up part of the obligatory public costs of being a country. I have a suspicion that the police in this country are kept "dumbed down" by design.

How do you pluck smart ones from this barrel of young men with this poor education sytem, and them being offered a monthly salary that we extanjeros drink in rum per week (on occasion, like weeks 1-4 of a month).

The education system here is the poorest I have seen in Latin America (including Nicaragua) - and I suspect only Haiti's education system is worse (but it's probably a close race there too)
 

william webster

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Jan 16, 2009
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I pray this thread doesn't deteriorate into name calling etc

to try and pull things back together - I did a little local survey of Dominicans...

1/ How to speed up/intensify an investigation -
Go to the bank and load up..\got to the local Commandante and buy the help
Even poor people do this
Imagine what happens when a rico plays the trump card

2/
Cultural Differences

a/Why did the police not quickly get this woman on their radar?
In this culture, it isn't uncommon for arguing spouses to get physical..
Yes, they might throw the other off the moto or out of the car...

or the woman to bang him over the head with a frying pan

All normal

b/ even if you are Dominican and lying injured on the street - far away from home where you are an unknown -
they will strip you of your belongings...
not known to have family locally- never seen you before - == fair game
Dominicans tell me this

So, the fact that this woman was Morena, in a strange 'hood and lying on the street hurt isn't too much of a stretch from any normal night in RD

Leave aside that whodathunk they would go AWAY from the airport to get to it
An assumption here.... the route

You ask any Dominican - as I did - how they feel about the police being redirected to search for lost tourists
when there are so many larger internal problems screaming for attention.

Please report back.....with your findings... as I have just done

The job of chief police may be yours !!!
 

bigbird

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May 1, 2005
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As of now
The FBI have commandeered the local police to do their bidding.... as I read it.

Where is their embassy in all this ??

New York– Representatives Eliot Engel (NY-16) and Adriano Espaillat (NY-13) wrote to FBI Director Christopher Wray calling for an FBI investigation into the reported deaths of Orlando Moore and Portia Ravenelle, two Mount Vernon residents who reportedly died while vacationing in the Dominican Republic.

Certainly not as if the FBI is onto something. If the FBI does get involved time will tell.

https://engel.house.gov/latest-news...t-vernon-residents-in-the-dominican-republic/
 

bigbird

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May 1, 2005
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@ WW, I like post #62. What we also see here and so often see is the outrage that come from foreigners. To Dominicans like you mentioned, just another day. Just another unknown dead person. To Dominicans it gets solved or it don't life still goes on.
 

william webster

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Jan 16, 2009
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You & I get BB....
some others are just looking into the looking glass

Accept the culture or stay put...
and it's not always easy...

They eat cats in poor areas.... tough life at times
 

bigbird

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............... You ask any Dominican - as I did - how they feel about the police being redirected to search for lost tourists

when there are so many larger internal problems screaming for attention.

Please report back.....with your findings... as I have just done

The job of chief police may be yours !!!

I bet they would say the Hell with them lost tourists. Government could be using that money to provide discounts on kids school clothes.

I am not being harsh just saying what i think.
 

Cdn_Gringo

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Apr 29, 2014
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I can't defend the education system, nor do I wish to as I have not attended a school in this country. I will readily admit that many institutions of learning are far from being what they claim.

The deal is this. In the PN as in the army, the rank and file do not make decisions, they follow orders. The Majors, Colonels and Generals on the other hand do make the decisions. All have what constitutes an advanced education degree and have been within the ranks of the PN for more than a decade and some Generals since they were first weened it seems.

This is not the first tourist to go missing and it isn't a completely unique set of circumstances although some aspects definitely are. Nature imbued humans with the ability to learn from their experiences as a survival strategy. One cannot progress through a policing career without picking up some useful insights and practices along the way. All of these leaders have training and experience that should amount to more than someone who just watches Cops on TV on Saturday night.

This was not a case where it can be assumed that the missing adults chose to just up and disappear. They don't live here, they have a flight booked and a rental car to return. They told people they were going to the airport right up until the time they left the resort. There are not a whole lot of ways to get from Samana to the SD airport - at least that your average tourist would choose to take when running late and in the dark. It doesn't require a rocket scientist of a commander to ensure the boots on the ground have requested video fottage from the toll booths early on. That route would be the one I figure most tourists would take. The police could very easily have determined the exact time they left the hotel. Within a day or two, the PN would have had the 1:41 video identified and could then forget for the time being about interviewing tour guides in Limon. They would know that the missing couple was somewhere between SD and say La Romana in the south of the country and if they strayed into SD or La Romana there would be more video somewhere of them doing so.

I get that it is uncool to call someone stupid and any excuse to provide cover is better than nothing in a pinch. Come one people, the women was in the custody of the healthcare system and in the records of the 911 system. There has to be a call on record somewhere from the hospital to the police. At the very least the police admitted to contacting the hospital on their own much later along the time line.

All of the cards were on the table, all someone with a slight amount of acumen had to do was look at them and the obvious would have jumped up and bit them on the nose. If you want to excuse this level of ineptitude away, go ahead, you do so at your own peril. I don't buy it. From the outset, it would appear that the right people were not put on this case and there was no competent high ranking officer specifically tasked to provide leadership and oversee this investigation. If that had been done, given the common sense that experienced leadership is supposed to bring with it, two chickens and a hamster could have found the women within 72 hours.

No one here on DR1 has offered any sort of justifiable reasoning why highly educated and experienced police commanders who have conducted innumerable searches before dropped a ball that was placed right into their hands in that the movements of the missing were straight forward, easily discoverable and there were no third party players to complicate things. When you are searching for a missing women, there is no way it takes two weeks to look into every Jane Doe in a hospital between SD and La Romana. While some say the PN had no way of knowing that the women was that close at hand. I counter, if they had just checked, because they had no info to suggest she wasn't close at hand, half of the missing duo wouldn't have been missing anymore.

Say and believe what you will. The Command responsibility really had to work at screwing up such a simple and straight forward inquiry. In fact the only way this could have played out as it did is if no one above the rank of Lieutenant showed up for work during that first week to ten days.

As an after thought, all along I have been assuming the police wished to find these people. Upon reflection, I have to admit I have no facts to support that initial premise.
 

bigbird

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May 1, 2005
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.......Within a day or two, the PN would have had the 1:41 video identified and could then forget for the time being about interviewing tour guides in Limon. They would know that the missing couple was somewhere between SD and say La Romana in the south of the country and if they strayed into SD or La Romana there would be more video somewhere of them doing so............

Just for starters Gringo, the lady was found going the opposite direction from the airport. When she was found her boyfriend was not there nor was any vehicle in sight. So what dots do you see to connect.

I don't know for sure when the PN found out what and neither do you. Can you recall how many days after the fact they never arrived stateside did the PN get contacted. Did the media and USA Embassy get contacted before or after the PN?

Quite possibly you can provide an accurate timeline?
 

william webster

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Jan 16, 2009
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or... could it be that this case ... was less important than other cases at hand

Our premise here is -
Why does a tourist warrant more attention !!?

You Gringo are helping us prove the point --- gracias
 

Cdn_Gringo

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Apr 29, 2014
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BB, you have clearly make up your mind and nothing I say is going to change that.

In the grand scheme of things, what difference does it make which side of the street the woman was on? She is a women, she is badly injured, she was taken to the hospital and no one can say for certain she is not the missing tourist, who at that time was not reported missing yet, but just a couple days later the PN first heard about the missing couple. Within those two days, I do not see it as unreasonable that the police should have/could have gone to the hospital to check out the situation of a badly injured unknown women. Maybe she was the victim of a crime and it might fall on the police to investigate further...

It's possible I suppose that the hospital didn't report the Jane Doe and I do not specifically know if they are required to. However, one of the first ten things you do when looking for someone is check the hospitals. Which hospitals you ask, any that fall within a 50- 100 mile swath of ground along the general route from Samana to SDQ. It's not like there are hundreds of such hospitals and clinics. Yeah it may take a couple of admin staff and a couple of telephones and a bit of time, but this is fundamental investigative police work, and not something that should be a completely foreign concept to the PN. Of course, I am again assuming that they hoped to find the couple.
 
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bigbird

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BB, you have clearly make up your mind and nothing I say is going to change that.
............
LOL, look who is talking.

Once again Gringo you have no idea what was done and when. Did you sit in on every briefing. You base everything on what little info you can gather from newspapers........... just like all of us
 

AlterEgo

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Jan 9, 2009
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This thread is about to implode

I suggest you re-read the OP and stop trying to recreate the closed thread.

One and only warning
 

franco1111

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May 29, 2013
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Gringo
There is a whole police agency dedicate to protecting tourists. CESTUR. (They changed the name but everyone still calls them CESTUR.) How do they fit into all this?
 

bigbird

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There is a whole police agency dedicate to protecting tourists. CESTUR. (They changed the name but everyone still calls them CESTUR.) How do they fit into all this?

Isn't CESTUR just for matters that happen within designated tourist areas?
 

LTSteve

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Jul 9, 2010
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As we always seem to follow various tourist tragedies...
it begs the question of the role of the country’s police.

Some of us have been talking off the record about this.... not on DR1

Whether lost, hurt, falling off balconies , robbed...
There is a variety of tourist related incidents.... some casual, some severe

Recently, there was some carping about the police not doing enough...being incapable... etc
in a search for missing persons.

My question is... what priority should these tourist accidents be given?

Is it the country’s police job to help drunks, wanderers, and such find their way?
Much of the problem is self inflicted by the tourists themselves.
Balcony drunks, driving drunks....whose responsibility is it to police them?

Personally, as a former resident and now citizen, I would prefer to see them serve and protect the country rather than the visitors.
Maybe the advice we all scorn.... DON’T LEAVE THE COMPOUND.... is actually good advice.

Rep Dom has enough internal issues without caring for the casual visitor who seemingly breaks all the rules consistently.....
The costs much be huge for a force that hasn’t enough money to begin with.

When these visitors are harmed by locals.... OK... have at it.
Catch the perpetrators and punish them.

But the self inflicted stupidity seems to be the more common problem.

In my experience of travelling to the DR for over 30 years the % of tourists that act recklessly and without any sense of their surroundings is a very small number compared to the whole. Many go the route of the AI and feel much more comfortable with their security level. Others are more adventurous and want the "local" feel for their time in the DR. Either way it really comes down to the fact that **** happens everywhere. I have been reading lately that 3 people have died from falls recently at the Grand Canyon National Park. At least one of these was because someone had to take a selfie, got to close to the edge and fell to their death. Sounds dumb and reckless but these things happen everyday. The DR is not unique to this kind of behavior. Human beings take risks and put themselves many times in precarious situations. I don't see where the DR "police" are over taxed trying to help or solve crime involving Gringos. The tourist industry generates a HUGE amount of tax dollars for the DR Gov. In turn this allows the Govt. to pay for goods and services for their citizens and visitors alike. Yes some tourists go overboard on their vacations and act differently than they would at home. That's life in the fast lane of the Republica de Dominicana and every other tourist destination in the world. We see the instantaneous headlines and react to the tragedy by trying to find logical answers to human behavior. Sometimes it's poor behavior and other times it's putting yourself in situations and places you are unfamiliar with and that leads to sad outcome for some.
 

william webster

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Jan 16, 2009
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The real question is -
What role should the police play ?
as it pertains to public safety.

The problem with RD and other tourist driven countries, I suppose , is how to differentiate between the public and the tourist.

LTSteve isn't the first to point out the small % of stupid tourists.
But remember, the number of criminals in a society is a small % too.
Overall, the police are charged with a small % of the population.... that's the system almost everywhere.

I think we can disregard percentages

Rep Dom's problem is that there over 6M tourists a year in a country that has less than 10M people.
Furthermore, those tourist visits swell in peak months.

CESTUR does exist... its function is dubious.... as is its effectiveness.

RD's problem is unique in the aspect of tourist volume.
 

william webster

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Jan 16, 2009
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Wandering off drunk
Shacking up with a partner for a few days - incommunicado...

The police chase.... to no avail... false alarm

IN the US - don't the police seek compensation for time wasted ??
on a frivolous case ??

Look here...
Chicago is going after Jusse Smollett

NYTimes today
Chicago Sues Jussie Smollett, Seeking Payback for Police Investigation Into Attack Claim

The police in other countries won't tolerate frivolous cases....
 

tflea

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Jun 11, 2006
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Apparently not so many know that CESTUR has an App for at least a year or so, which works much like 911, and it works in Sosua & Cabarete. I can't say 100% about other municipalities. The App was not designed to immediately offer assistance with problems that are not tourist related, that would be 911. Please do NOT press the red panic button just to see if it works. You might be interfering with someone who really does need help at the same time. The 2 times I am aware when English was required, were successful. Cestur phone is 809 222-2026 or 809 200-3500. MOPC 829 688-1000 for roadside assistance.
 

LTSteve

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Jul 9, 2010
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Look here...
Chicago is going after Jusse Smollett

NYTimes today
Chicago Sues Jussie Smollett, Seeking Payback for Police Investigation Into Attack Claim

The police in other countries won't tolerate frivolous cases....

Your point is taken. In a developing country where you have a lot of have and have nots there will always be tourist related problems developing from the lack of awareness of their surroundings and not using common sense. The police often times will get involved in local tourist related problems. Bottom line, it's just another day in paradise. I really don't think this has any big impact on police resources and there salaries or lack there of in the DR.