Prostitution study

[curiosita]

I assume you're familiar with the work of researchers like Cohen (2006), Kerrigan (2006), Haddock (2007) & Padilla (2007)? And don't despair, some of us who post on DR1 are familiar with objective research .

Sorry to skip you there. You are right, there is a lot of good solid research on the Dominican sex industry that I have discovered since moving here. Haddock (2007)? (Don't know it.) I particularly like the work that Kerrigan et al. have done because it does not demonize any of the participants. And, I like that Padilla highlights males (though I think he pays insufficient attention to heterosexual male prostitution). But, I am actually a lawyer/legal academic, so my my standards on the sex industry are really legal texts. Socio-legal research on the DR is minimal, and I really haven't found anything of note on the sex industry here in my particular field. Any leads?

 

[AZB]

Here is a fresh example:
A manager of a small hotel is sosua has just left my office. while he was in my office he received a call from a german client. The conversation took place in german so i didn't understand. but when the dominican guy got off the phone he begins to tell me in great distress, how clients never listen to him. A german client slept with a sosua hooker, only woke up to find 900 dollars missing from his wallet. Now he is making a scandal at the hotel as his spending money is all gone.
Since I know, this person has been working in hotel industry since I have known him (10 yrs), I asked him a few questions regarding this scientific study on Dr1. The manager just shook his head, laughed and told me flat out: Do not trust these putas, they are liars, cheaters and friends of no one. he is forced to call in the police investigation but little will be accomplished. The girl may be spotted and identified. the police will take her to station. She may make a deal right away or she may get beaten up first. They always cry and plead innocence. After a few slaps, she will make a deal. She will give 300 dollars to police and the case will be dissolved. No one will take any further actions. This is the game played in this puta business, day in and day out. He tells me he has seen this happen so many times that he is not even surprised by phone calls like this. he keeps his clients informed of dangers of bringing in putas to hotel, very few actually listen to him.
Berzin is right. The women who want out of this business are the fat, old ones who can't cut the muster anymore.
AZB

 

[macocael]

You can take the whore out of the barrio but, you can't take the barrio out of the whore.

Well yes and no. I think that what some of the posters who argue that personal character lies at the back of the choice to continue working, either formally or informally, as a prostitute or hired girlfriend (and these different practices need to be keep distinct in your mind -- the institute, as I understand it, is talking more about formal, organized prostitution rather than the hired girlfriend model), are missing the point that the institute is trying to make: it has to do with the concept of "structural violence" as originally formulated by Paul Farmer -- the idea that disadvantageous social systems function as a kind of violence against people, crippling them in important ways that limit their ability to act autonomously or in their best interests (because mentally they cannot even conceive of the options, and those options might not be available to them anyway).

As the poster I quote above puts it eloquently, you cannot take the barrio out of the whore -- but that is kind of the point the institute is making -- that is, i you want the girl to stop whoring, you need to do more than simply change the environment, you need to dig down into the roots that the barrio buried in her, transform her psychologically, emotionally, and intellectually (remember that one of the key datum cited is the lack of education -- if you have the equivalent of a sixth grade education, well there is not much you can expect of a person when it comes to making a radical change. ).

In other words, it is not sufficient to view this as a kind of moral failing, a character flaw, an aspect of the girl's personality -- that moral vision and practice is heavily "overdetermined" by factors that none of the posters on this thread, I imagine, have had to deal with and probably cannot conceive of the deep influence these have on character. I am not arguing that a moral dimension does not exist here, or that individual character counts for nothing -- certainly not, people are weak -- that is kind of the point behind the bible's moral didacticism (in the OT it is not a matter of original sin that cripples mankind, it is their "stiffnecked" rebeliousness and tendency to opt for the easy way out instead of struggling to do the right thing). Hey, we all know, as the detective in the movie Seven, observes, that it is easier to rob rather than earn a living, easier to whore than work at a real relationship and respect its obligations, easier to cheat than to be honest, etc. But the force of character, the will and the knowledge, needed to "do the right thing," to act wisely and conscientiously depends on good education, both at school and at home, as well as other factors -- as I am sure all you parents well know. these girls largely do not have that upbringing, and given some of the values prevalent in Dominican society, along with the pressures and temptations offered by accelerated consumerism and the sudden wealth that is everywhere to be seen now as a result of development, well you can at least begin to understand some of the motive forces at work here in the making of a prostitute.

 

[frank recktenwald]

Here is a fresh example:
A manager of a small hotel is sosua has just left my office. while he was in my office he received a call from a german client. The conversation took place in german so i didn't understand. but when the dominican guy got off the phone he begins to tell me in great distress, how clients never listen to him. A german client slept with a sosua hooker, only woke up to find 900 dollars missing from his wallet. Now he is making a scandal at the hotel as his spending money is all gone.
Since I know, this person has been working in hotel industry since I have known him (10 yrs), I asked him a few questions regarding this scientific study on Dr1. The manager just shook his head, laughed and told me flat out: Do not trust these putas, they are liars, cheaters and friends of no one. he is forced to call in the police investigation but little will be accomplished. The girl may be spotted and identified. the police will take her to station. She may make a deal right away or she may get beaten up first. They always cry and plead innocence. After a few slaps, she will make a deal. She will give 300 dollars to police and the case will be dissolved. No one will take any further actions. This is the game played in this puta business, day in and day out. He tells me he has seen this happen so many times that he is not even surprised by phone calls like this. he keeps his clients informed of dangers of bringing in putas to hotel, very few actually listen to him.
Berzin is right. The women who want out of this business are the fat, old ones who can't cut the muster anymore.
AZB

AZB, you hit the nail right on the head!!!!
Haven't been that long in this country but the patterns I see here I've seen all over the world.
The game is the same!!!
It always cracks me up that people have opinions about things they don't know anything about or don't have enough street smart to see that they're being conned or lied to.

 

[cobraboy]

So there really isn't any need for studies at all, since they are all subjective, are conducted shoddily, and have pre-existing agendas.

That makes sense. We can all rest comfortably, knowing that our own personal opinions are always objective, dependable, and correct.

Well, all right! Life just got a whole lot easier.

That is not what I am saying at all.

But it is RARE when a study is not done to verify a pre-existing belief.

But I'll even cast a broader net: since we all have personal prejudices and bias, we tend to gravitate towards others who share those opinions and biases. In this instance, if a person feels sorry for hookers, they will tend to believe the "hooker as victim" studies.

Affirmation of our personal beliefs. The Blind Men and the Elephant.

 

[catcherintherye]

"since we all have personal prejudices and bias, we tend to gravitate towards others who share those opinions and biases. In this instance, if a person feels sorry for hookers, they will tend to believe the "hooker as victim" studies."


I don't think that is entirely true. There are many people don't simply seek validation of their own opinions, but look for a thoughtful discussion, which might shed new light on pre-conceived notions, and which allows for some intellectual growth and change.

It would be extremely boring if I only socialized with those who had the exact same opinions as me. The same is true for other sources of information. Reading or viewing only those who are of the same mind is very limiting and unrewarding. I look for media that contains new and different ideas, and offers a variety of opinions, without the lectures and berating diatribes.

However, a good give and go of ideas is something of a lost art, from what I've seen. People tend to stake out their positions early and adamantly, and seem to think that any opposing ideas or deviation of their original position is not only wrong, but must be totally discredited and destroyed.

I like to think there is a lot of gray in many of these black and white arguments, but I've found that very few want to recognize any middle ground at all.

In terms of this thread, of course hookers lie and cheat, and want to make as much money as they can, while they can, as easily as they can. But there is also another side to the story, and much more surrounding this issue that is worth exploring.

Yes, I foresee all the adolescent jokes that will arise from that statement, but there are many aspects of this topic, which some will not even consider, because they think they already know everything there is to know about 'putas', and they are not about to listen to anyone who thinks otherwise.

There is much information that is lost when “them and us” becomes the prevailing mentality, and there are many good and knowledgeable people who simply give up attempting to contribute.

 

[Manzana]

The 94%

The issue of how to describe the degree of choice exercised by sex workers has not been seriously discussed. It's not obvious. You can just ask if someone would like to change jobs, as the study seems to have, without any qualification. It doesn't tell you much unless you have a lot of other data about how everyone else answers the same question. Even then it's a hopelessly muddled question.

Posters have offered a lot of examples that suggest that prostitutes rarely give it up even given reasonable opportunities.

There is at least some stigma associated with being a prostitute. That means that there is some extra incentive in insisting you are not "choosing" it, whether you in practice choose it or not.

Let me offer a milder example I'm very familiar with. There is a mild stigma associated with being an auto worker in a factory. Autoworkers are well paid and have good benefits but perform low prestige work. Most autoworkers would answer like Dominican prostitutes that they would do something else if they could. Most will not voluntarily quit even with what many people would consider good alternatives. What they seem to be saying is that if someone offered me a job with more social prestige that had the same pay/benefits and difficulty of my current job I would take it.

The same would apply anytime a low prestige or stigmatized job is also well compensated.

Nobody is making that offer to Dominican prostitutes or American Autoworkers.

 

[AZB]

It would be extremely boring if I only socialized with those who had the exact same opinions as me.
However, a good give and go of ideas is something of a lost art, from what I've seen. People tend to stake out their positions early and adamantly, and seem to think that any opposing ideas or deviation of their original position is not only wrong, but must be totally discredited and destroyed.
.

Look who is talking. maybe you should take your own advice before replying to any of my posts.
AZB

 

[cobraboy]

People tend to stake out their positions early and adamantly, and seem to think that any opposing ideas or deviation of their original position is not only wrong, but must be totally discredited and destroyed.

I like to think there is a lot of gray in many of these black and white arguments, but I've found that very few want to recognize any middle ground at all.

You presume that only those you deem thoughtful are the only ones with "open minds"?

Baloney.

 

[catcherintherye]

Look who is talking. maybe you should take your own advice before replying to any of my posts.


You know exactly why I respond to you as I do. It is not what you say as much as the way you say it. You find it impossible to make any statement without being incredibly derogatory and insulting.

You are a prime example of someone to feels it necessary to discredit and destroy any idea which is different than yours, and any person who has the nerve to post those ideas.

 

[catcherintherye]

"You presume that only those you deem thoughtful are the only ones with "open minds"?"

What in the world are you talking about? When did I say that?

 

[Berzin]

No more personal sniping please, and lets' get back on topic.

 

[frank recktenwald]

One thing I'd like to add is that for most women here in the DR and any other poor country for that matter, it's just a small step to enter professional prostitution because they're already accostumed to it due to their way of life. Women in the barrio give it up to anybody who has RD200 or more, how many times I've been approached when I lived in the barrio I can't count.
How many times I have heard women say "yo lo deje porque no suelta", for them it's normal.
Women all over the world know that they have something that's worth money so they exploit it without wasting too much energy and time.

 

[Berzin]

One thing I'd like to add is that for most women here in the DR and any other poor country for that matter, it's just a small step to enter professional prostitution because they're already accostumed to it due to their way of life. Women in the barrio give it up to anybody who has RD200 or more, how many times I've been approached when I lived in the barrio I can't count.
How many times I have heard women say "yo lo deje porque no suelta", for them it's normal.

Good post, except for that last sentence. I kinda don't agree with that one, but that will be a discussion for another day.:cheeky:

I think people are clueless about Dominican female sexuality. I myself have found some of the things I've experienced difficult to understand yet they seem normal and routine to Dominicans.

Painting these women out to be victims 100% is clearly not correct. Yes, there are a myriad of issues that abound, but the study in question clearly doesn't touch on any of them.

 

[frank recktenwald]

Good post, except for that last sentence. I kinda don't agree with that one, but that will be a discussion for another day.:cheeky:
QUOTE]
Sorry that we have to disagree on that but seriously I've seen and heard this many times here as well as in other countries that if you want to get some honey you gotta have some money if not the honey dries up.
Example, one of my female employees in her late thirties, seperated with 2 kids had an Italian boyfriend but split up with him because he didn't give her any money. This woman is as square as a Dominican woman can be, far from being a hooker making RD7000 per month
Other example, inlaws of mine, not proud of this, had a boyfriend but took another boyfriend who's married just because he forks over some cash and left the other one she says eventhough I'm convinced she's still giving him some.
I can give many more examples.

 

[badpiece33]

One thing I'd like to add is that for most women here in the DR and any other poor country for that matter, it's just a small step to enter professional prostitution because they're already accostumed to it due to their way of life. Women in the barrio give it up to anybody who has RD200 or more, how many times I've been approached when I lived in the barrio I can't count.
How many times I have heard women say "yo lo deje porque no suelta", for them it's normal.
Women all over the world know that they have something that's worth money so they exploit it without wasting too much energy and time.

Capitalism at its best, They have the supply and we have the demand.

 

[catcherintherye]

"Painting these women out to be victims 100% is clearly not correct. Yes, there are a myriad of issues that abound, but the study in question clearly doesn't touch on any of them."

Absolutely, they are not 100% victims, and there are a myriad of social issues that are involved with prostitution. Some of those issues were only briefly touched upon in the study.

In fact, I'm not exactly sure what the point of the study was. However, it did initiate some interesting discussion.

As someone already pointed out, there are many variables that eventually lead to a woman's decision to become a prostitute. Certainly the lack of alternative well-paying careers for women is one of those factors. Another is the general attitude toward sex that Dominicanas have. But there are certainly many other factors as well, and every woman who makes that decision has their own personal reasons.

As far as the question of which came first, the behaviors or working in that profession, I don't think there is much in that study to indicate one way or the other.

In other words, the question might be, is there a particular personality and/or behavioral type that seeks that work, or are those personalities and behaviors developed as a result of the work? I'm not sure anyone has done, or could do, a study on that question.

 

[FernieBee]

Prostitution exists because people are willing to pay for sex, and other people are willing to accept that payment.

Marriage is a sublimated form of prostitution.

 

[frank recktenwald]

"Painting these women out to be victims 100% is clearly not correct. Yes, there are a myriad of issues that abound, but the study in question clearly doesn't touch on any of them."

Absolutely, they are not 100% victims, and there are a myriad of social issues that are involved with prostitution. Some of those issues were only briefly touched upon in the study.

In fact, I'm not exactly sure what the point of the study was. However, it did initiate some interesting discussion.

As someone already pointed out, there are many variables that eventually lead to a woman's decision to become a prostitute. Certainly the lack of alternative well-paying careers for women is one of those factors. Another is the general attitude toward sex that Dominicanas have. But there are certainly many other factors as well, and every woman who makes that decision has their own personal reasons.

As far as the question of which came first, the behaviors or working in that profession, I don't think there is much in that study to indicate one way or the other.

In other words, the question might be, is there a particular personality and/or behavioral type that seeks that work, or are those personalities and behaviors developed as a result of the work? I'm not sure anyone has done, or could do, a study on that question.

To be honest I don't understand the need for such a study due to the fact that prostitution has been around from the time we started walking upright.
It has always been the easiest and quickest way to make a living, yeah sometimes they experience "work related" accidents such as diseases, beatings etc but that's part of the game the same as injuries for an athlete, burns for a fireman or splinters for a carpenter.

 

[Lambada]

Sorry to skip you there. You are right, there is a lot of good solid research on the Dominican sex industry that I have discovered since moving here. Haddock (2007)? (Don't know it.) .....But, I am actually a lawyer/legal academic, so my my standards on the sex industry are really legal texts. Socio-legal research on the DR is minimal, and I really haven't found anything of note on the sex industry here in my particular field. Any leads?

No problem, I nearly didn't see this because of the grown men arguing syndrome . Most of my familiarity is with the HIV/AIDS studies in relation to prostitution - the Haddock study is on Condom use among sex workers in DR:
Population Action International : Policy Empowers - Condom Use Among Sex Workers in the Dominican Republic

Also Guerrero et. al:
"Secret client" observations of condom use among female sex workers in the Dominican Republic.

Some legal/policy issues (& a good bibliography) here
http://www.unfpa.org/hiv/docs/report-cards/dom_rep.pdf

And the youth coalition report here:
http://www.youthcoalition.org/DEV/mambo2/images/stories/ExternalReports/tt%20external%20report.pdf

This you'll already be familiar with, I'm sure
Abstract | Environmental?structural interventions to reduce HIV/STI risk among female sex workers in the Dominican Republic

Have a look at this bibliography also
CARISMA: Caribbean Social Marketing to Prevent HIV & AIDS