Reparations To Developing Nations?

[Tony C]

FACTS!!!
1.Texas won their independance from Mexico.

2.South West United States was not "Taken" from Mexico. It was given up by Mexico in payment for loosing a war that they started.

3. Revisionist History doesn't work on me!

4. Silly is saying you don't recognize Texas as part of the US.

 

[thick_neck]

Texas, huh?

Having lived in the United States of Texas and/or in the Republic for Richard Stands, for a long time (too damn long), I can only agree with sancochojoe.

Texans are a proud bunch, and will not entertain the notion that their history books have it all wrong.

Most discussions usually end with boasts of superiority and the fact that "we can nuke the Mexicans, nuke 'em all."

I once asked a historian from M.I.T. and Brown U. to describe in one word the Texas-sized sense of pride found in the Lone Star, but he just smiled.

Texas history - only the Bah?a de Cochinos war stories heard in EF EL AY get any bigger; Golo was correct two years ago.

 

[sancochojoe]

Having lived in the United States of Texas and/or in the Republic for Richard Stands, for a long time (too damn long), I can only agree with sancochojoe.

Texans are a proud bunch, and will not entertain the notion that their history books have it all wrong.

Most discussions usually end with boasts of superiority and the fact that "we can nuke the Mexicans, nuke 'em all."

I once asked a historian from M.I.T. and Brown U. to describe in one word the Texas-sized sense of pride found in the Lone Star, but he just smiled.

Texas history - only the Bah?a de Cochinos war stories heard in EF EL AY get any bigger; Golo was correct two years ago.

AAAAAAAAmaannnnn!!!!!!

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Dirty little secrets about Texas "Independence"

Mexico ... was ... totally in denial of the economic plights of "their" state of the Northeast.

Humn, what "economic plight" was that, exactly? The answer can be found in these dirty little (and one big) secrets of Texas indepependence:

1. The anglo settlers were invited in and gifted land by the Mexican government. They signed written contracts with the Mexican government requiring their loyalty and their conversion to Catholocism.

2. Stephen F. Austin was a huckster commissioned by the Mexican government to recruit anglo settlers. He ran river boat shows that highly exaggerated the offerings of Texas to prospective settlers. He received a commission for each one.

3. Davey Crocket was a failed Tennessee politician who went to Texas after his reputation was lost at home.

4. The fledgling Texas government refused to send reinforcements to the Alamo.

5. The precipitating event leading to the Texas rebellion was the outlawing of SLAVERY by the Mexican government. Most Texas settlers came from the southern US and brought their plantation style economy with them. In addition to their economic interest in slavery, they supported slavery in principle. Lynchings of black Americans occurred in Texas through the early part of the 20th century.

6. By treaty, Mexico agreed to end the war and allow Texas independence. A condition of the treaty was that the Texans would agree to stay independent and not join the USA.

7. The US-Mexican war followed ten years later in large part because, again, the Texans didn't keep their part of the bargain and joined the US.

8. Now George W. Bush.

Bill, tell me where I'm wrong.

 

[Texas Bill]

Thats what you fail to understand. Texans have an unusual way of interpreting the history of Texas. Just to throw something anecdotal, I've just came back from lunch with a bunch of guys from various backgrounds an points of reference. We all got a laugh because they all agreed that its not worth debating about Texas with a Texan because their sense of Texas History is skewed from the start. As you noticed from the start Texas Bill seem to want to start the discussion about Texas at 1836. Typical Texan.
Its like asking an alcoholic if he is an alcoholic or not. You know the answer you are going to get. He even has you defending him in treating Texas as if it is a foreign country.

I grew up in Southern California. I dont need a history lesson about the southwest either. But I know their is a lot more to the history than you guys think their is.

So I guess I'm only qualified to talk about California, Cuba and Jamaica, right. Don't fall into that trap.

My position still stands objectively.

You might be right about California! But don't you EVER try to teach me Texas History! My ancestors came to Texas with the ORIGINAL colonists with Moses Austin, Stephen F.'s father, and settled around Washington-on-the-Brazos in the early 1800's. So, I'm very well versed and founded in the history of my neck-of-the-woods. Maybe you would be enlightened by some of the diaries that were written during that time outlining the treatment of those same settlers by the Mexican authorities; but, then i doubt it because that wouldn't fit your concept of happenings.
Therefore, my "skewed" view/version of Texas history doesn't begin with 1836, but much earlier in the history of the ENTIRE area.
Eat your words!
Your stand is NOT OBJECTIVE, but rather, is entirely SUBJECTIVE, since you ignore the facts.


Texas Bill

 

[sancochojoe]

You might be right about California! But don't you EVER try to teach me Texas History! My ancestors came to Texas with the ORIGINAL colonists with Moses Austin, Stephen F.'s father, and settled around Washington-on-the-Brazos in the early 1800's. So, I'm very well versed and founded in the history of my neck-of-the-woods. Maybe you would be enlightened by some of the diaries that were written during that time outlining the treatment of those same settlers by the Mexican authorities; but, then i doubt it because that wouldn't fit your concept of happenings.
Therefore, my "skewed" view/version of Texas history doesn't begin with 1836, but much earlier in the history of the ENTIRE area.
Eat your words!
Your stand is NOT OBJECTIVE, but rather, is entirely SUBJECTIVE, since you ignore the facts.
Texas Bill

Now we want to romaticize that period. Hmmmm I guess those happy little settlers all jumped up and down in a circle singing happy songs along with their "SLAVES". Read the post above yours Texas Bill. They seem to always be excluded out of those good o'l days. Am I right Porfio_Rubirosa? There is always an ulterier motive when it comes to american history in those days.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Slavery is America's original sin.

 

[sancochojoe]

Isn't it amazing how its all leading right back to the topic of "Reparations".

How interesting.

 

[Tony C]

6. By treaty, Mexico agreed to end the war and allow Texas independence. A condition of the treaty was that the Texans would agree to stay independent and not join the USA.

7. The US-Mexican war followed ten years later in large part because, again, the Texans didn't keep their part of the bargain and joined the US.

Bill, tell me where I'm wrong.

Hmmmm Independent but only if you do what we tell you to do? Seems the Texans were just exercising their rights as a free nation!

Spin all you want but the fact remains that Texas fought and won its independence from Mexico and that pisses you guys off!

"Slavery is America's original sin."
How so? Slavery was imported by European nations and became indespensible for the economy of the Americas. The U.S. wasn't the last nation in this Hemisphere to abolish it. In fact the U.S. went through great turmoil to end it.

As i see it only 2 nations mentioned in this thread have any claim for Reparations. The U.S. against Mexico and the D.R. against Haiti.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Hmmmm Independent but only if you do what we tell you to do? Seems the Texans were just exercising their rights as a free nation

And breaking treaties and contracts resulting in wars with many deaths - all for, primarily, slavery.

Spin all you want but the fact remains that Texas fought and won its independence from Mexico and that pisses you guys off!.

Yea, I'm sure the Mexicans can't sleep at night either knowing that they lost Witchita Falls. That's not exactly the point, is it.

'Slavery is America's original sin.'
How so? Slavery was imported by European nations and became indespensible for the economy of the Americas. The U.S. wasn't the last nation in this Hemisphere to abolish it. In fact the U.S. went through great turmoil to end it..

I would excuse the ignorance if you were Dominican. But you live in Miami, so you're just blind.

Edited to add. Looked it up and you're right. Brazil outlawed slavery in the 1880s.

 

[sancochojoe]

Hmmmm Independent but only if you do what we tell you to do? Seems the Texans were just exercising their rights as a free nation!

Spin all you want but the fact remains that Texas fought and won its independence from Mexico and that pisses you guys off!

"Slavery is America's original sin."
How so? Slavery was imported by European nations and became indespensible for the economy of the Americas. The U.S. wasn't the last nation in this Hemisphere to abolish it. In fact the U.S. went through great turmoil to end it.

As i see it only 2 nations mentioned in this thread have any claim for Reparations. The U.S. against Mexico and the D.R. against Haiti.

Well we should stick to the topic. But on a final note, please dont waste your time with exuses for having slavery or others had it so whats the big deal. The point is that having it truly define the US, denying it only maintain rifts that still exist in the country and it was not just a page in a chapter of a history book. Any decent person with a since of civility would understand that. Thats all I have to say about that.

Again don't nobody wants ya'll stinkin reperations. You can take it and stick it up your ........

 

[thick_neck]

Ironically...

Los cubanitos like Tony will be the first ones demanding reparations after losing the "vast acreages of land" they owned before Fulgencio and his ilk were rightfully kicked out.

 

[Texas Bill]

And breaking treaties and contracts resulting in wars with many deaths - all for, primarily, slavery.


Yea, I'm sure the Mexicans can't sleep at night either knowing that they lost Witchita Falls. That's not exactly the point, is it.


I would excuse the ignorance if you were Dominican. But you live in Miami, so you're just blind.

Edited to add. Looked it up and you're right. Brazil outlawed slavery in the 1880s.

So what's so damn GREAT about following Lincoln's "Emancipation Proclamation" by 20++ years???Huh???
seems o me that they were a litle late "jumping on the [humanitarian]bandwagon".

Texas Bill

 

[Texas Bill]

Now we want to romaticize that period. Hmmmm I guess those happy little settlers all jumped up and down in a circle singing happy songs along with their "SLAVES". Read the post above yours Texas Bill. They seem to always be excluded out of those good o'l days. Am I right Porfio_Rubirosa? There is always an ulterier motive when it comes to american history in those days.

Contrary to YOUR skewed belief, not all of the original settlers were slave holders after entering the Mexican domain. My own ancestor issued "manumission" papers to his 10 upon reaching the western shores of the Trinity River. Why?? Because they were subject to being taken into slavery again if caught in Louisiana (the border then being the Sabine River). He never owned another. As an aside, he also was with Sam Houston at San Jacinto, though he was over 70 years old.
A majority of those settlers didn't have the wherewithal to own slaves anyway and were against the institution.
So, before you start spouting off about that which you obviously have a void of knowledge in, do some EXTENSIVE RESEARCH into contemporary writings and private (now public) papers.
I know you follow a different agenda, but be factual in your assertions.
As to the US having had slavery as "truly defining it", I really think you are barking up the wrong tree.
What I really think is that you are a disappointed revolutionary who has lost his way and are searching for a platform from which to spew forth your venom. You haven't had a single kind, or constructive, remark to make in ANY of your posts to date.
Maybe you should change your agenda?? Huh??? You obviously are a very bitter man. What made you that way??
AND, if you wish to continue answering/responding with uncalledfor sarcasm???well,buddy you just tangled with the wrong Texan!! I'll eat your lunch!!!
So, let's keep it clean, SHALL WE???

Texas Bill

 

[sancochojoe]

Maybe you should change your agenda?? Huh??? You obviously are a very bitter man. What made you that way??
AND, if you wish to continue answering/responding with uncalledfor sarcasm???well,buddy you just tangled with the wrong Texan!! I'll eat your lunch!!!
So, let's keep it clean, SHALL WE???

Texas Bill

Uh, hold on while I chew this piece of chicken.....................................

ok you said,...blah blah, blah blah blah blah, blah blah.
Did I get that right.

no matter how you want to paint a pretty picture, american will always carry the "scarlet letter" on its chest. Simple as that. I don't call it an agenda. I just call it as I see it. If I have an agenda, I'll run for office.

If I felt every person at that time had a slave I would discredit myself in the debate, but it always seem the good people always keep quiet. So when it comes to Reperations, which I dont agree with, but for the sake of argument, it would be the good people silently saying, sure why not, it seems like a nice thing to do. But its always the bad ones that want to say, hell the F--- no. For what. We did nothing wrong. I wasn't there, and so the debate goes on and on and on. Thats the moral of the story

Yeeeeeee haaaa ride em cowboy. ohhhh Back to my chicken.........Dominican style

 

[Tony C]

And breaking treaties and contracts resulting in wars with many deaths - all for, primarily, slavery..

Whatever their motives and whoever they were the fact still remains that Texas fough for and won their independance from Mexico.

Yea, I'm sure the Mexicans can't sleep at night either knowing that they lost Witchita Falls. That's not exactly the point, is it..

Apparently many do as well as others such as Sancocho.

I would excuse the ignorance if you were Dominican. But you live in Miami, so you're just blind..

Not Blind. Just opne to the fact that attitudes and ethics change over time.
You Talk like The U.S. was the only Country the practiced Slavery. The US wasn't the first country that had slavery and it wasn't the last. In fact it is still practiced today.
Lets bring in a little Dr content here. Why do you think their are so many blacks and mulattos in the DR? Do you think they all came to visit on a vacation and loved the island so much they decided to stay? The DR has a long and deep history of slavery as well. SHould the Dominicans of today hang thier head in shame over it as well?

Edited to add. Looked it up and you're right. Brazil outlawed slavery in the 1880s.

Don't you hate it when I am right?

 

[Tony C]

Los cubanitos like Tony will be the first ones demanding reparations after losing the "vast acreages of land" they owned before Fulgencio and his ilk were rightfully kicked out.

What a comment!
So Old, So Tired, So Perdictable, so.........................LAME!!!!

A comment made by somebody who does not know me or my family.
FYI The Cuban side of my family left Cuba many years before the rise of Fidel. We make no claim for lost property even though my family did lose and Apt their.
After the rise of Fidel the US Gov allowed those who had property confistcated to deduct thier loses on ton their Taxes. By doing so you gave up legal claims to the property.
Stick that fact up your "Jealous of us Cubans" rear-end!

 

[sancochojoe]

What a comment!
So Old, So Tired, So Perdictable, so.........................LAME!!!!

A comment made by somebody who does not know me or my family.
FYI The Cuban side of my family left Cuba many years before the rise of Fidel. We make no claim for lost property even though my family did lose and Apt their.
After the rise of Fidel the US Gov allowed those who had property confistcated to deduct thier loses on ton their Taxes. By doing so you gave up legal claims to the property.
Stick that fact up your "Jealous of us Cubans" rear-end!

well I'm sure many Cubans who left Cuba will scream for reperations for losing what they had there. I prefer to just walk along the sandy beaches.

 

[Texas Bill]

well I'm sure many Cubans who left Cuba will scream for reperations for losing what they had there. I prefer to just walk along the sandy beaches.

Maybe I was wrong about you having an intellectual agenda.

Your agenda seems to be that of eating chicken ,walking the sandy beaches, uttering condescending and outrageously inaccurate remarks couched in psuedo-intellectual language while reading the latest comic books.

When was the last time you interviewed a former Cuban now living in the States? Odds are you have NEVER done so. So, how do you know they want reparations? Huh? As Tony said, most have recovered their loss through the reduction of taxes normally imposed by the US on income, property, etc. Now whose government isn't benevolent? Huh?
The people of the entire world have suffered from slavery at one time or another so why do you focus on the USA? Because, for some reason or another, you have a hard-on for that country that, from the vein of your posts, is very paranoid and factually out of date. You make an attemmpt to rewrite history with your own misplaced concepts of events skewed by fallacious reasoning and call it truth. You quote others as "blah, blah, blah" and expect to thusly place yourself above them intellectualy, but all you are proving is your own ineptitude and lack of intellectual capability. You relagate yourself to being a whining wannabe by your own vervosity.

Reperations??? Don't ask me to pay for what someone did before my lifetime began. I've worked hard for my financial security and have absolutely no intention of giving it up in any part to a bunch of whining nere-do-wells. You will take it over my dead body. Do YOU have a big enough gun??? I think not.

I think I'll sit back, drink my Presidente under the shade of my kiosk, and watch you eat your chicken while walking the beach.

Texas Bill

 

[Adrian Bye]

I just wanted to thank all of you that have contributed to such an intelligent, insightful and fascinating thread. You've done an outstanding job and should be proud of your thought provoking contributions to the DR1 community.