The Haitian Genetics Thread

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mountainannie

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For those who want to follow Chip down the brutal racist and horrible murderer and killer of innocent white people. there is a 98 page thread on this topic over on Dominican Today which is the English speaking forum for mainly the Dominicans in the States who do not speak Spanish..http://www.dominicantoday.com/dr/fo...ines-Slaughter-of-whites-Toussaint-Louverture

others may want to honor someone who ended slavey in 1804 and founded the first independent Black Republic, only 15 years younger than the United States. Still on the Failed States list, still the poorest, but still breathing..

(the other French islands are still part of Franch)
 

jabejuventus

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With all due respect Louverture and Dessalines were little different than the French slaveowners due to their racist disregard for innocent human life. Louveture and Dessalines were responsible for the racial genocidal massacre of thousands of non combatant civilians in Santo Domingo and Saint Domingue and should not be remembered as anything other than ruthless military leaders. Maybe worse still is this legacy of racism is still evident today in Haiti and is a large reason why Haiti has not progressed.

Hi Chip. I don't know every historical detail, but am not surprised that Mssrs. Louverture and Dessalines would have acted any less ruthless than was the norm at the time. I instead represented them as reactionary products of the era so as to indicate that deep-seeded motivations must still exist within African descendants in all venues. Before the Haitian slave insurrections the intellectuals of the day were trumpeting similar concerns. "One day 'yoke may yoke, and blood may blood repay'" (Williams, E. 1970, p. 216).

As it relates to current-day Hispaniola, my sense is that our view of Haiti and her immigrants in the DR is fraught with a slave bias. Is it a stretch to suppose that the Louverture/Dessalines mindset is absent in the DR? I'm not sure what you are defending/justifying?
 

K-Mel

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Not to put too fine a point on things...

The fact that it was the slave TRADE, indicates that someone gained by selling people to others. Clearly some of the people were European. Seeing that the peoples of Africa have historically been overwhelmingly African, and the people who were traded to European slavers were African, it stands to reason that someone of African origin became wealthy as a result of the slave trade.

Names, facts and figures please
 

jabejuventus

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The other thing is that this is a small island.. well a BIG island but an islolated population, and two nations which are very different from one another, both in history, culture and racial history. They are one of the few divided nation islands in the world and have not had an easy history. Things got better for a bit. Now things seem to be getting worse. There is a divide of language. There is divide of culture and customs. There is a constant accusation against the Domnicans that they deny their African heritage which is true to an extent because first they were told by Trujillo that they were Spanish and Indian, not Negro, and that they do not have anything really of an African culture.

so just exploring their roots.. The majority of the 20 million people here will never get off this island.

Yup. You're in a healthy place to be in terms of understanding the status quo.
 
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Names, facts and figures please

Melly, why don't you just apply common sense. You really think whitey could go into the bush and capture African man by himself? Transporting him hundreds of miles through tough and dangerous terrain and then stowing them on ships without the help of Africans? Let me rephrase that, without the supervision of the Africans?
 

K-Mel

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Melly, do some more reading
A professor at Harvard University Henry Louis Gates Jr. has blamed the ashanti empire for actively partaking in the slavetrade and profitting from it. He argues that the ashanti empire directly captured and sold human beings for immense economic gain.

“The savage chiefs of the western coasts of Africa, who for ages have been accustomed to selling their captives into bondage and pocketing the ready cash for them, will not more readily accept our moral and economical ideas than the slave traders of Maryland and Virgini.

Professor Gates writing in the New York times said the culpability of American plantation owners neither erases nor supplants that of the African slavers. The African American professor cited ex president Rawlings as being one of the few African leaders who have openly apologized for the role Africans played in the trans Atlantic slave trade.

The professor noted that the sad truth is that the conquest and capture of Africans and their sale to Europeans was one of the main sources of foreign exchange for several African kingdoms for a very long time adding the Asante Empire in Ghana exported slaves and used the profits to import gold.

The eminent black scholar asked did these Africans know how harsh slavery was in the New World? Actually, many elite Africans visited Europe in that era, and they did so on slave ships following the prevailing winds through the New World. He argues that it is difficult to claim that Africans were ignorant or innocent.

The professor whose wrongful arrest recently caused a racial debate in the US drawing in president Obama added that the problem with reparations may not be so much whether they are a good idea or deciding who would get them; the larger question just might be from whom they would be extracted.

Jake akwasi sarkodie

freelance journalist. frankfurt,Germany http://jakegh.blogspot.com/2010/04/ashanti-empire-blamed-for-slavery.html

Ashanti Empire blamed for slavery | General News 2010-04-28

Henry Gates is not a specialist or scholar of the slave trade and has been rebuked by many specialists. You say Hugh Thomas, Inikori, Lovejoy, Sylviane Diouf, Walter Rodney etc. Please tell us which Ashanti kings enriched from the slave trade ? Names, facts, figures please not mythology...
 
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As it relates to current-day Hispaniola, my sense is that our view of Haiti and her immigrants in the DR is fraught with a slave bias. Is it a stretch to suppose that the Louverture/Dessalines mindset is absent in the DR? I'm not sure what you are defending/justifying?

Chip's an apologist. His "reality" has been carefully constructed to withstand everyone else's.
 

K-Mel

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Melly, why don't you just apply common sense. You really think whitey could go into the bush and capture African man by himself? Transporting him hundreds of miles through tough and dangerous terrain and then stowing them on ships without the help of Africans? Let me rephrase that, without the supervision of the Africans?

First WTF is melly ? I have been studied the African slave trade for 8 years, and also have strong personal library with more than 500 hundreds books ( around 1/3 about slavery in general, and I surely read more than you'll ever do),so I am waiting for facts, names , books ( scholars opinions) not uneducated or personal opinions....
 
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jabejuventus

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Is it a stretch to suppose that the Louverture/Dessalines mindset is absent in the DR?

"Is it a stretch to suppose that the Louverture/Dessalines mindset is absent in the DR?" in last para should be Is it a stretch to suppose that the Louverture/Dessalines mindset continues to exist in the DR?
 

Chip

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others may want to honor someone who ended slavey in 1804 and founded the first independent Black Republic, only 15 years younger than the United States. Still on the Failed States list, still the poorest, but still breathing..

(the other French islands are still part of Franch)

The killing of innocent non combatants is always wrong, no matter who does it.

Regarding the aforementioned Haitian leaders, it could easily be justified that their racist policies have caused the permanence of arguably worst and most corrupt government in modern history, in other words nothing to be glorified, to say the least.
 

Chip

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Hi Chip. I don't know every historical detail, but am not surprised that Mssrs. Louverture and Dessalines would have acted any less ruthless than was the norm at the time. I instead represented them as reactionary products of the era so as to indicate that deep-seeded motivations must still exist within African descendants in all venues. Before the Haitian slave insurrections the intellectuals of the day were trumpeting similar concerns. "One day 'yoke may yoke, and blood may blood repay'" (Williams, E. 1970, p. 216).

There is no excuse for what they did, especially to innocent Dominicans.

As it relates to current-day Hispaniola, my sense is that our view of Haiti and her immigrants in the DR is fraught with a slave bias. Is it a stretch to suppose that the Louverture/Dessalines mindset is absent in the DR? I'm not sure what you are defending/justifying?

I can't say I understand what you are proposing. What I am defending is the truth of recorded history.
 

K-Mel

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While we may individually feel that we owe no one for happenings of yore, IMHO we need to hold a certain recognition, and then humility and respect, and yes, gratitude, for the role Africans have played, and continue to play, in our lives. Races should not take other races for granted. I can almost guarantee that informed African descendants don't take the stories of Toussaint Louverture and Jean Jacques Dessalines (no expat13, he is not a former Quebec Nordique goalie) lightly either.

Haitians are definitely among the heroes of humanity, there has been 4 major slave trades in human history ( I mean who degenarated to a war between the slaves and their masters). Three occurred in ancient Rome, and one in the new world I.e in Saint Domingue. Only Haitians were able to freed themselves in their war from for freedom. Spartacus the scythian and Enneus the Syrian failed... For more details please have a look at Moses Finley's Ancient
' Slavery and Modern Ideology.
 

Chip

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Henry Gates is not a specialist or scholar of the slave trade and has been rebuked by many specialists. You say Hugh Thomas, Inikori, Lovejoy, Sylviane Diouf, Walter Rodney etc. Please tell us which Ashanti kings enriched from the slave trade ? Names, facts, figures please not mythology...

Frank was kind enough to post his "names facts and figures" first so no why don't you do the same in return?
 

jabejuventus

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What I am defending is the truth of recorded history.

TRUTH be told, African-Haitians are being abused and discriminated against in the DR. This may have negative ramifications for DR in the future. Can we agree on that?
 

Chip

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Chip's an apologist. His "reality" has been carefully constructed to withstand everyone else's.

You are perpetually confused.

The definition of "apologizing" is defending an action. You are apparently defending Louverture's and Dessaline's actions. You are therefore an apologist, and a hypocrite.
 

K-Mel

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BTW Toussaint Louverture never killed any innocent Dominican. Toussaint fought for the Spanish and then for the French mainly because the Spaniards were advocated of slavery ( remember that Haitians freed the 4000 remaining slaves in the DR in 1822...14 years after the Haitian Independence...). Dessalines and Christophe wrongfully killed civilians in 1805 that is absolutely true. However these civilians were killed due to dramatic events which are masterfully described by Dr Juan Bosch in " De Cristobal Colon a Fidel Castro" vol 2 :

- Haitians went to the DR in 1805 to kick out the French who allowed the kid napping and enslaving of Haitians teenagers
- Some Dominicans fought the Haitians with the French Army ( who occupied the DR since 1795)
- Haitians saw French warships in Samana and thought that they were heading to Haiti, so they quickly went back and burnt down everything ( terre brul?e strategy) and UNFORTUNATELY killed innocent civilians in the DR.
 

K-Mel

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Haitians are definitely among the heroes of humanity, there has been 4 major slave trades in human history ( I mean who degenarated to a war between the slaves and their masters). Three occurred in ancient Rome, and one in the new world I.e in Saint Domingue. Only Haitians were able to freed themselves in their war from for freedom. Spartacus the scythian and Enneus the Syrian failed... For more details please have a look at Moses Finley's Ancient
' Slavery and Modern Ideology.

I meant 4 major slave REVOLTS ( tablet bug lol)
 
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