What would it take to curtail corruption......

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Everything Is Relative

Rooting corruption from Dominican society is a pipe dream. But that's okay. I'll take the good with the bad. Norway has very little corruption, but you couldn't pay me to live there. Boring!

What we should strive for is moderate reductions in corruption and moderate improvements in government operations. I hate to be in your face, Rocco, especially after you quoted me, but that was what Leonel achieved. It's not that there was no corruption in the Fernandez administration - there was plenty of it. But there was a noticeable decrease in overall government corruption compared to previous administrations - or at least in the appearance of corruption to regular people. And I thought that his government performed better because of it.

In big American cities like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia and Boston, voters tend to not evaluate politicians based on whether they are corrupt - most of them are. Rather, they evaluate them on whether they are capable of getting things done within the prevailing system.

A professor of mine back in my school days once compared Chicago to Philadelphia in regard to corruption. He said that in Chicago, to build a bridge, there would be bid rigging, political favoritism, kick-backs, nepotism, bribery and union slush funds. After all that, you get your bridge.

In Philadelphia, to build a bridge, there would be bid rigging, political favoritism, kick-backs, nepotism, bribery and union slush funds. After all that, you DON'T ever get your bridge.

Leonel is Chicago. Hipolito is Philadelphia.

 

[Rocco]

Now we have fallen into the trap of laying blame. You are too intelligent to take this easy road. It?s all Hipolito?s fault, come on, can?t we accept blame for anything? The Japanese & the Americans have 1 major difference in regard to business: The Americans are fixated on WHO is to blame for the problem? ? The Japanese, Who will find the solution to the problem? Which philosophy do you think would yield more results???

 

[Pib]

Well, you first have to find out what is wrong before you embark in any idea of solution, don't you think. It is nice and all to have here the 'Devil's advocate', it gives us a much needed different perspective of the problem. For all I know I am pretty sure that corruption is worse (or better depending on your side of the road) in this government.

And yes, I believe in the power of one. I believe that my acts have consequences and I may not change the world but I'd be darned if I quit trying. I believe that if I change just one person there's a chance that person might be the one who'll either change someone else or step up and lead us.

 

[MommC]

So....How does 1 person effect change? I pay my power bill and I pay more when I am not in the DR than when I am! Why? because I'm paying for the unit below me that is owned by a family from SD who own an industrial company who illegally connect their power when they come for the weekend then leave Sunday afternoon with the air-conditioners going full blast.
In the 11 yrs I've lived in the building I've only ever once seen them pay a power bill and that was when AES first took over from CDE and did not bill for the outstanding balance. They haven't paid since then. So what can I do??

 

[Rocco]

What you can do MommaC is what we are all doing now. Everyone here, regardless of their personal position, is discussing the problems and - I am happy to say ? without resorting to personal attacks that detract from the main point. Intellectuals can discuss problems & together build the foundations for the eventual solutions. 1 person, like yourself, IS making a difference ? because without the 1, there can be no hope.

 

[Rocco]

Bravo Pib!

 

[Pib]

Pib: "Everybody is doing it, why can't I?"
Pib's mom: "Because your name is NOT 'Everybody'"

I think that's how it works. Strange how my mom is always right.

 

[mondongo]

OK...lets begin then.....as Pib states....first determine WHAT the problem is...Rocco has stated "corruption"...but this is too broad of a term...lets narrow that down .....thats like saying we all want to end world hunger and want world peace....yeah....thats nothing new..... brainpower is only evident when details and specifics are brought forth...

 

[Pib]

I was referring to Rocco's comment on "laying the blame".

 

[MommC]

So that means I have effected some change! (my maid now pays for her power....problem is other connect to her line and she's getting bills of 8-900 pesos a month so every month she has to fight with the power company to come disconnect those illegal lines and lower her bill - which they do to around $300 pesos).
We also fight with the company every year to lower the bills (which are higher by about 300 pesos per month when we are out of the country and not using any power) for the months when we are gone. Takes about three months of going into the office every 10 days,waiting hours to talk to someone, bringing our passports and photocopies of them ('cause they can NEVER find the copy from 10 days ago) and eventually getting a reduction. We also refuse to pay the outstanding bill -just the current one- until they get it all straightened out. Then it's almost time to leave and begin the whole process again when we return!!
Sheesh....after 12 yrs talk about getting tiresome!!

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

If we are dealing in generalities, then I repeat: education, education and education. What can we each do personally? Provide or help provide education, education and education - and stay on our soapboxes advocating better things for the DR.

If you want to raise specifics, then I'll try a more specific answer.

 

[Rocco]

mondongo - I DO want world peace & I DO want to end world hunger! Why is idealism so difficult to comprehend, because it is difficult? Isn?t it SO much easier to complain about something? I make no apologies for my belief that we can all make things better ? Yes, even world peace.
PS mondongo: I didn't state "corruption" - this thread was started by MommaC. I don?t want KEN to give me another Board Etiquette is that We Don't Hijack Someone Else's Thread.

 

[MommC]

I also gotta agree with Pib and a little with Porfio......this gov't is definitely more corrupt! Fernando at least was making an attempt to get rid of some of the corruption whereas Hippo is encouraging it! Therefore Fernando was Chicago and Hippo is Philly!
I think being on the island only part of the year tends to make us more aware of the changes when we return. Not being there day to day makes it easier to see the progress or lack of , of "back sliding" that occurs.

 

[mondongo]

I digress, but just briefly

Rocco's analogy of Japan and the USA does not pass mustard cause the Japanese economy is not even close to the American economy. Japan has been in recession for 15 years now...

its not a question of blame but a question of accountability...we of course have to find out WHO is to blame so we can kick them right out of the job......

I hate sounding like the bad guy, but when I get into a discussion with intelligent people, I INSIST on logic and factual information and allusions...otherwise, we are just flapping our gums

 

[MommC]

As an adjunct mondongo....see the thread "I think it's time".
Your comments there will be appreciated!

 

[Tony C]

The amount of corruption inany given country is in proportion to the wealth of its people. Countries with low corruption(US, Western Europe, Japan) have a Pop. with a high per-capita income spread over the general population. High amounts of corruption the opposite.
So You want to lower corruption in the DR. Make people wealthy!
Logic! Try it some time

Tony C.

 

[mondongo]

MommC....the solution to the important issue you bring up is being discussed in the other Thread started by Tom F. Disconnect yourself from the grid. Get together with your neighbors and form your own grid....or better yet...lets put a business plan together, get some VC and start designing self-sufficient micro power companies in the DR...the power companies work for you...fire them...

Edited to applaud Tony C. Above and beyond all else, whatever is done must result in making the per capita income of the DR substantially higher.

 

[Porfio_Rubirosa]

Mondongo and MommC - I'm on board with you.

mondongo - I DO want world peace & I DO want to end world hunger! Why is idealism so difficult to comprehend, because it is difficult? Isn?t it SO much easier to complain about something? I make no apologies for my belief that we can all make things better ? Yes, even world peace.

Rocco - Judging from your postings, I would guess that you're either Canadian or Norwegian. Just curious.

TonyC - Wealth and corruption inversely related? I'm not sure I agree (Italy, for example, is wealthy and corrupt). But, nonetheless, you have a "chicken and the egg" problem. How does a society become wealthy if its corrupt and how do you end corruption if the society is not wealthy?

 

[Rocco]

Neither & irrelevant.

 

[AC/DC]

However Mondongo the thread by Tom F presents a possible solution only to the power problem that is neither feasible nor affordable for the average Dominican. It also does nothing to lessen the corruption in the political, or judicial (including police) areas.