- Thread starter MommC
- Start date
What would it take to curtail corruption......
Mondongo...
"Rocco's analogy of Japan and the USA does not pass mustard"
Mustard? the yellow stuff you put on Hot Dogs? LOL
Porfio...
"- Watched an electricity crisis hurdle out of control before ostensibly solving the problem by, of course, borrowing more money and zapping the middle class some more. "
Let me get this right, you are blaming Hippo for agreements that were signed under a different regime that you apparently liked better and put it on Hippo as his problem?
Keith...
" "Keith, you can afford to think optimistically. You grew up in a country that had its Tammany Hall a century ago. Leonel may mean well, but he's fighting decades of tradition."
Well we did have our Tammany Hall and have had many since then. We continue to struggle now with Enron, Tyco, Martha Stewart and every other sort of greed, etc. etc. etc.. We did something about it then and continue to do something about it today. We do NOT accept BAD as OK nor had we in the past. Seems as if they do in the DR past present and future.
I have been in the building business since 1977 and have NEVER even considered paying off a building inspector or any other sort of government agent. Unlike crisco who can't even NOT think about it when it comes to his Hoover.
I have said this before and I will say it again. It won't change until the Dominicans give a shit. Some Canadian in Juan Dolio won't be the catalyst.
One hundred years ago when we supposedly went through these same problems in the US I don't think we had a higher level of education. I would bet that a 6th grade education was the norm. I think we had a higher level of desire. Education may not be the answer as some have claimed, albeit not a bad thing for the populance. The US is the MELTING POT of the world and the land of opportunity. Immigrants had the desire to get ahead and to educate themselves.
Dominicans have to get this done by themselves. Domincans living in the DR not the ones living in Chicago and Boston. Pib may be the most well meaning person but one person does NOT get it done.
My 35 peso...
"Rocco's analogy of Japan and the USA does not pass mustard"
Mustard? the yellow stuff you put on Hot Dogs? LOL
Porfio...
"- Watched an electricity crisis hurdle out of control before ostensibly solving the problem by, of course, borrowing more money and zapping the middle class some more. "
Let me get this right, you are blaming Hippo for agreements that were signed under a different regime that you apparently liked better and put it on Hippo as his problem?
Keith...
" "Keith, you can afford to think optimistically. You grew up in a country that had its Tammany Hall a century ago. Leonel may mean well, but he's fighting decades of tradition."
Well we did have our Tammany Hall and have had many since then. We continue to struggle now with Enron, Tyco, Martha Stewart and every other sort of greed, etc. etc. etc.. We did something about it then and continue to do something about it today. We do NOT accept BAD as OK nor had we in the past. Seems as if they do in the DR past present and future.
I have been in the building business since 1977 and have NEVER even considered paying off a building inspector or any other sort of government agent. Unlike crisco who can't even NOT think about it when it comes to his Hoover.
I have said this before and I will say it again. It won't change until the Dominicans give a shit. Some Canadian in Juan Dolio won't be the catalyst.
One hundred years ago when we supposedly went through these same problems in the US I don't think we had a higher level of education. I would bet that a 6th grade education was the norm. I think we had a higher level of desire. Education may not be the answer as some have claimed, albeit not a bad thing for the populance. The US is the MELTING POT of the world and the land of opportunity. Immigrants had the desire to get ahead and to educate themselves.
Dominicans have to get this done by themselves. Domincans living in the DR not the ones living in Chicago and Boston. Pib may be the most well meaning person but one person does NOT get it done.
My 35 peso...
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Oh I have the plan alright!!!
Lets just say be prepared to hear more from my 2 sons in about 35 years!I'll be watching from "AFAR" CCCCCCCCCC
Lets just say be prepared to hear more from my 2 sons in about 35 years!I'll be watching from "AFAR" CCCCCCCCCC
Contracts & Reality
Jazzcom,
Contracts are one thing. Reality is another. Or, put another way, a contract is in substantial part only as good or bad as the people administering it. Mejia cannot administer. He cannot solve problems. He cannot take a creative approach to solving what may be a bad contract. All he can do is borrow, misappropriate and sap the middle class. I would sum it up like this:
Fernandez: Things sort of worked and sort of improved.
Mejia: Nothing works and the overall situation is degrading. Future mortgaged.
Jazzy, you seem to know more than the average Jose about the DR. You're not disagreeing with me just for the sake of disagreement? Not still bitter about that Pan Am thing? Or do you really like Hippo and think that he is handling the electricity crisis well? If so, please post your approval of his handling of the electric crisis for the record.
Jazzcom,
Contracts are one thing. Reality is another. Or, put another way, a contract is in substantial part only as good or bad as the people administering it. Mejia cannot administer. He cannot solve problems. He cannot take a creative approach to solving what may be a bad contract. All he can do is borrow, misappropriate and sap the middle class. I would sum it up like this:
Fernandez: Things sort of worked and sort of improved.
Mejia: Nothing works and the overall situation is degrading. Future mortgaged.
Jazzy, you seem to know more than the average Jose about the DR. You're not disagreeing with me just for the sake of disagreement? Not still bitter about that Pan Am thing? Or do you really like Hippo and think that he is handling the electricity crisis well? If so, please post your approval of his handling of the electric crisis for the record.
Hard to make comments without all the facts which I don't have. I also don't believe you have all the information needed to make informed opinions.
I can say that it wasn't his doing to begin with and without having seen the contracts and being a legal expert on contracts it is impossible to say if he did the "wrong" thing or what he was forced to do.
I didn't have knowledge about Pan Am but I thought that you were completely unfair. I am not bitter about PAN AM. I am not Mr. Panam so it means nothing other than a loss of competition to the DR and competitive prices in the future. I am not bitter towards you personally either. I think you are an intelligent guy and I like you. Only thing I don't like is that you don't want to look at the other side of the argument.
I guess I like what is called evidence that he did the wrong thing. Otherwise all you have is opinion which in your case is put forward as fact.
No, not for the sake of disagreeing. Show me the beef and not the bullshit.
The policy of administering the monies from the bonds can be looked at in two ways. Even in the US when a bill is passed there are a bunch of not so nice things called "Pork Barrel" items put in as a negotiated bill. Sort of like the DR. Is there pork in the spending? Yup I would say so. Is the money spent wrong? I can argue the Hippo side of the matter with ease and with facts.
I can say that it wasn't his doing to begin with and without having seen the contracts and being a legal expert on contracts it is impossible to say if he did the "wrong" thing or what he was forced to do.
I didn't have knowledge about Pan Am but I thought that you were completely unfair. I am not bitter about PAN AM. I am not Mr. Panam so it means nothing other than a loss of competition to the DR and competitive prices in the future. I am not bitter towards you personally either. I think you are an intelligent guy and I like you. Only thing I don't like is that you don't want to look at the other side of the argument.
I guess I like what is called evidence that he did the wrong thing. Otherwise all you have is opinion which in your case is put forward as fact.
No, not for the sake of disagreeing. Show me the beef and not the bullshit.
The policy of administering the monies from the bonds can be looked at in two ways. Even in the US when a bill is passed there are a bunch of not so nice things called "Pork Barrel" items put in as a negotiated bill. Sort of like the DR. Is there pork in the spending? Yup I would say so. Is the money spent wrong? I can argue the Hippo side of the matter with ease and with facts.
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Jazzcom,
This is not about a little "pork". It's about total misappropriation and governmental dysfunction. I would care less about corruption and theft of government funds if things were happening, economic progress were being made, a modicum of infrastructure being completed. Promoting formentation of business and private sector employment would be a nice thing, instead of enacting policies seemingly designed to do the opposite.
I understand "trickle down", but I don't think it applies here. The theft is too grand and the stolen funds are in too large a part carted off to Switzerland instead of being spent in the DR.
Mondongo could cite volumes to you about the macreconomic disasters of His Baldness. I don't claim to be an expert, though what I read rings true.
Rather, what I know is what I suffer through. 8-15 hours per day without electricity for approaching a year now. Leonel had to deal with greedy producers and distributors also, but somehow managed to keep the voltage on most of the time and without socking it to the middle class (a.k.a. the "sucker" class).
I remember Hippo promising very early in his term that every schoolchild would be served mangu for breakfast. His Baldness can't even figure out a functioning way to distribute mashed plaintain! How's he going to solve the electrical or any other crisis?
There. You wanted facts. I give you mangu. If you have the evidence to defend the man, I say let's see it.
This is not about a little "pork". It's about total misappropriation and governmental dysfunction. I would care less about corruption and theft of government funds if things were happening, economic progress were being made, a modicum of infrastructure being completed. Promoting formentation of business and private sector employment would be a nice thing, instead of enacting policies seemingly designed to do the opposite.
I understand "trickle down", but I don't think it applies here. The theft is too grand and the stolen funds are in too large a part carted off to Switzerland instead of being spent in the DR.
Mondongo could cite volumes to you about the macreconomic disasters of His Baldness. I don't claim to be an expert, though what I read rings true.
Rather, what I know is what I suffer through. 8-15 hours per day without electricity for approaching a year now. Leonel had to deal with greedy producers and distributors also, but somehow managed to keep the voltage on most of the time and without socking it to the middle class (a.k.a. the "sucker" class).
I remember Hippo promising very early in his term that every schoolchild would be served mangu for breakfast. His Baldness can't even figure out a functioning way to distribute mashed plaintain! How's he going to solve the electrical or any other crisis?
There. You wanted facts. I give you mangu. If you have the evidence to defend the man, I say let's see it.
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The aid I seen on the self of The capital Polo Store
Whwen I lived in the capital in 1985... at Polo there where several items being sold that was intended for the poor gratis. I know that things change slow......ly.
Whwen I lived in the capital in 1985... at Polo there where several items being sold that was intended for the poor gratis. I know that things change slow......ly.
What can we do on the individual level? I believe a whole lot? Like others have said, I agree that a large part of the answer to corruption lies in education - but I?m not talking about the kind of education you get in the classroom (although also important). Jazzcom stated that corruption:
I?m not sure if I could disagree more?sorry Jazz. First of all, from my experience, Dominicans certainly do ?give a shit??the problem is not about a lack of motivation or desire for change. Rather, it?s about not knowing where or how to start the change as well as about not possessing the freedom, experience, or empowerment to be able to step back from one?s daily life and look at the bigger picture?it?s not just this month?s phone bill or yesterday?s 20-hour apagon, but something much bigger than that: general corruption (the definition of which I believe to be the ?manipulation & deception of others to benefit oneself?). Another difficulty in combating this widespread corruption is, in my opinion, that the average individual generally does not feel powerful enough to actually believe in his/her own ability to enact change?a byproduct of many things including, perhaps, slavery, poverty, a legacy of oppressive rulers, etc. And then there is also the concern of personal safety when criticizing the government?
About the idea that one foreigner is incapable of being a catalyst - one of the largest gifts I feel that I can give to somebody of a different culture is the same exact gift that they can give to me: the blessing and challenge of seeing the world through somebody else?s eyes, of realizing that the entire world does not look or function like it does in one?s own culture, and of consequently being equipped to seriously question and reevaluate one?s own (cultural) understandings, expectations, and behaviors ? and to then maybe even change some of them. Sure, one Canadian in Juan Dolio won?t be the only catalyst, but he/she could be one of many. Think about what a huge impact some of your Dominican friends have had on you?do you truly believe this impact is one way rather than mutual?
So MommC, my answer to you is this: have your friends over ? Dominican, American, kids, adults, whatever, and talk, debate, listen, and question. Your topics don?t need to be huge, lofty issues ? the simple things are just as important ? discuss your cultural understandings, opinions, and feelings regarding family, work, fidelity, manipulation, equality, whatever matters to you. Don?t try to teach but to learn, and you will undoubtedly end up inadvertently doing some teaching in the process. Never stop being surprised by Dominican culture, and don?t be afraid to share your surprise with Dominican friends or to ask for their help in understanding what some cultural differences may mean. In my opinion, this capacity to think critically (which is necessary to speak about one?s own culture) ? to analyze and be introspective ? is one of the most valuable abilities there is ? and I believe that it is at the heart of empowerment and politicization. Of course you won?t change an entire country or even a small community in a matter of days or weeks, but definitely don?t underestimate the importance of what a little bit of change can do in the long run.
If you?re looking for a more concrete way to support change, there are many possibilities. You could start a women?s group that meets regularly to talk about issues that matter to all of you?you could start a literacy program for adults?mentor children?sponsor a student to go to college, etc.
I don?t think that I can say it any better than PIB did:
Every little bit counts.
Anyway, just adding my thoughts to the pot?
~Leja
I?m not sure if I could disagree more?sorry Jazz. First of all, from my experience, Dominicans certainly do ?give a shit??the problem is not about a lack of motivation or desire for change. Rather, it?s about not knowing where or how to start the change as well as about not possessing the freedom, experience, or empowerment to be able to step back from one?s daily life and look at the bigger picture?it?s not just this month?s phone bill or yesterday?s 20-hour apagon, but something much bigger than that: general corruption (the definition of which I believe to be the ?manipulation & deception of others to benefit oneself?). Another difficulty in combating this widespread corruption is, in my opinion, that the average individual generally does not feel powerful enough to actually believe in his/her own ability to enact change?a byproduct of many things including, perhaps, slavery, poverty, a legacy of oppressive rulers, etc. And then there is also the concern of personal safety when criticizing the government?
About the idea that one foreigner is incapable of being a catalyst - one of the largest gifts I feel that I can give to somebody of a different culture is the same exact gift that they can give to me: the blessing and challenge of seeing the world through somebody else?s eyes, of realizing that the entire world does not look or function like it does in one?s own culture, and of consequently being equipped to seriously question and reevaluate one?s own (cultural) understandings, expectations, and behaviors ? and to then maybe even change some of them. Sure, one Canadian in Juan Dolio won?t be the only catalyst, but he/she could be one of many. Think about what a huge impact some of your Dominican friends have had on you?do you truly believe this impact is one way rather than mutual?
So MommC, my answer to you is this: have your friends over ? Dominican, American, kids, adults, whatever, and talk, debate, listen, and question. Your topics don?t need to be huge, lofty issues ? the simple things are just as important ? discuss your cultural understandings, opinions, and feelings regarding family, work, fidelity, manipulation, equality, whatever matters to you. Don?t try to teach but to learn, and you will undoubtedly end up inadvertently doing some teaching in the process. Never stop being surprised by Dominican culture, and don?t be afraid to share your surprise with Dominican friends or to ask for their help in understanding what some cultural differences may mean. In my opinion, this capacity to think critically (which is necessary to speak about one?s own culture) ? to analyze and be introspective ? is one of the most valuable abilities there is ? and I believe that it is at the heart of empowerment and politicization. Of course you won?t change an entire country or even a small community in a matter of days or weeks, but definitely don?t underestimate the importance of what a little bit of change can do in the long run.
If you?re looking for a more concrete way to support change, there are many possibilities. You could start a women?s group that meets regularly to talk about issues that matter to all of you?you could start a literacy program for adults?mentor children?sponsor a student to go to college, etc.
I don?t think that I can say it any better than PIB did:
Every little bit counts.
Anyway, just adding my thoughts to the pot?
~Leja
Rocco
Keep up with the news pal. Not a day goes by without a major government scandal by Hipolitos aides. His entire government is a corruption chamber. What are you going to say today when you read about the Great Presidential Plane Caper, where Hippos closest aides used his presidential credit card to buy themselves guns, cars, houses and apartments, jewelry and the rest?
Have you been to a government office today? The buscones are back in force as para-government employees. Since Hippo cannot give them all jobs, he has legalized bribery. Take for instance, my girlfriends drivers license was bought, not earned. Why did she do it? Because she had no way to legally obtain it without bribery. She also paid $250 for an inspection sticker with a $40 peso value because Hippo decided that all private cars must pay, but not taxis or conchos, who are members of the PRD. Have you seen any Fenatrano drivers with the stickers? Not quite.
How many presidential aides have been arrested and accused this year of felonies, theft, homicides and other crimes? How much government land has been sold for pennies to PRD members and families of Hippos cabinet? What about aides that have been killed mafia style for their underworld ties?
Be serious my friend. Watch the news today and in the next five days. You will never see so much corruption before your eyes.
TW
Keep up with the news pal. Not a day goes by without a major government scandal by Hipolitos aides. His entire government is a corruption chamber. What are you going to say today when you read about the Great Presidential Plane Caper, where Hippos closest aides used his presidential credit card to buy themselves guns, cars, houses and apartments, jewelry and the rest?
Have you been to a government office today? The buscones are back in force as para-government employees. Since Hippo cannot give them all jobs, he has legalized bribery. Take for instance, my girlfriends drivers license was bought, not earned. Why did she do it? Because she had no way to legally obtain it without bribery. She also paid $250 for an inspection sticker with a $40 peso value because Hippo decided that all private cars must pay, but not taxis or conchos, who are members of the PRD. Have you seen any Fenatrano drivers with the stickers? Not quite.
How many presidential aides have been arrested and accused this year of felonies, theft, homicides and other crimes? How much government land has been sold for pennies to PRD members and families of Hippos cabinet? What about aides that have been killed mafia style for their underworld ties?
Be serious my friend. Watch the news today and in the next five days. You will never see so much corruption before your eyes.
TW
Thanks Leja......one does what one can! I do believe that one Canadian in Juan Dolio can make a difference and I do try to do as you have suggested. I have seen some differences in those that I am in contact with on a regular basis and I also must agree with much of what golo says. However the average Dominican that I encounter is also becoming more cognisant of how much better it was when there was less corruption in gov't and hopefully will learn to weed the truth from the lies when it's time to elect a new gov't.
Contribute to the Opposition???
Though this may fly in the face of all the Canadian self-righteous, morally superior mierda that get's floated around this forum, I ask whether merely talking about the ruinous problems with the current government will have any effect, or whether it just makes liberal do-gooders feel better about THEMSELVES (which is what being a liberal do-gooder is all about)?
The fact is that in the DR like most countries (including, perish the thought, Canada), "money talks and mierda del toro walks."
So, I ask the question: Should foreigners that want to see change in the DR government contribute real money to the opposition? Wouldn't this be better than talking about it at cocktail parties or complaining to your Dominican gardner (and sleeping better at night because you just know that, once he has been enlightened by Canadian knowledge, he will spread that enlightenment to 10,000,000 others)??? Isn't that how it's done back home with the immaculately perfect political systems in Toronto and Vancouver. Would it be legal? I do think that the PLD would make good use of the money.
I know that many will wish to respond about Canadian issues, but, remember, this is a DR forum.
Though this may fly in the face of all the Canadian self-righteous, morally superior mierda that get's floated around this forum, I ask whether merely talking about the ruinous problems with the current government will have any effect, or whether it just makes liberal do-gooders feel better about THEMSELVES (which is what being a liberal do-gooder is all about)?
The fact is that in the DR like most countries (including, perish the thought, Canada), "money talks and mierda del toro walks."
So, I ask the question: Should foreigners that want to see change in the DR government contribute real money to the opposition? Wouldn't this be better than talking about it at cocktail parties or complaining to your Dominican gardner (and sleeping better at night because you just know that, once he has been enlightened by Canadian knowledge, he will spread that enlightenment to 10,000,000 others)??? Isn't that how it's done back home with the immaculately perfect political systems in Toronto and Vancouver. Would it be legal? I do think that the PLD would make good use of the money.
I know that many will wish to respond about Canadian issues, but, remember, this is a DR forum.
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The original poster did not identify herself as Canadian, she just asked asked a question.
The first Canadian reference came from an American(jazzcom) who has had issues with Momm C before(very understandable).
So what is your problem? You cant have foreign investment without foreign influence, then again maybe you are like your namesake(username) and you are never satisfied.
Terry.
The first Canadian reference came from an American(jazzcom) who has had issues with Momm C before(very understandable).
So what is your problem? You cant have foreign investment without foreign influence, then again maybe you are like your namesake(username) and you are never satisfied.
Terry.
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Dominican way to end coruption
Let start hanging those caught wih their hand in the tielt or getting paid for a job not being done,even if we have to cut off those hung earlier to hand the second bath of thiefs, then only then you will have honesty in goverment employees, Branding is a secondary method,It might be a good deterrent. When I lived there in 1985 While visiting the Administrador de Vienes Nationales I was introduced to the President Cabinet, And I made that sugestion, as a way to end all Corruption. It did not go well between myself and my uncle, but they preteneded IT WAS A JOKE! I was dead serious I started to see it at custom, it bew my mind how blazen these individual where, there is no shame in politicians. The president at the time WasGeorge Blanco.
Let start hanging those caught wih their hand in the tielt or getting paid for a job not being done,even if we have to cut off those hung earlier to hand the second bath of thiefs, then only then you will have honesty in goverment employees, Branding is a secondary method,It might be a good deterrent. When I lived there in 1985 While visiting the Administrador de Vienes Nationales I was introduced to the President Cabinet, And I made that sugestion, as a way to end all Corruption. It did not go well between myself and my uncle, but they preteneded IT WAS A JOKE! I was dead serious I started to see it at custom, it bew my mind how blazen these individual where, there is no shame in politicians. The president at the time WasGeorge Blanco.
Publishing names and presenting suspects
Trujillo used to have a good system for preventing crime and corruption in government offices. He would make sure that the names of culprits would be widely published and punished in such public manner that it would deter their actions.
The presentation on TV and newspapers with large pictures of suspects captured to the entire population, recently discontinued because of apparent civil rights violations and legal rights, was one of the most dynamic deterrents in DR.
Now, white collar crime has the incentive to go on unmolested, because white collar criminals are more afraid of public disdain and shame than jail itself. Our white collar criminals are also being inmortalized as folk heroes and since they are getting VIP treatment in our courts, they have nothing to fear.
Take our drug king Florian. He recently told a judge in his chambers "to go to hell and challenged the judge to take his sunglasses away from him". The police escorts did nothing about it. He also did a major TV interview with Asela where he showed his jail cell, which has nothing to envy a VIP room from the Bavaro Hotel where the Presidential Iberoamerican Conference is being held. He has a gentleman's closet full of designer Verscae shirts, 15 cu.in. refrigerator, 27" TV with VCR, full decoration all around and custom bed with Serta premium mattress. The man lives like a king in our pre-historic jails!!!
TW
Trujillo used to have a good system for preventing crime and corruption in government offices. He would make sure that the names of culprits would be widely published and punished in such public manner that it would deter their actions.
The presentation on TV and newspapers with large pictures of suspects captured to the entire population, recently discontinued because of apparent civil rights violations and legal rights, was one of the most dynamic deterrents in DR.
Now, white collar crime has the incentive to go on unmolested, because white collar criminals are more afraid of public disdain and shame than jail itself. Our white collar criminals are also being inmortalized as folk heroes and since they are getting VIP treatment in our courts, they have nothing to fear.
Take our drug king Florian. He recently told a judge in his chambers "to go to hell and challenged the judge to take his sunglasses away from him". The police escorts did nothing about it. He also did a major TV interview with Asela where he showed his jail cell, which has nothing to envy a VIP room from the Bavaro Hotel where the Presidential Iberoamerican Conference is being held. He has a gentleman's closet full of designer Verscae shirts, 15 cu.in. refrigerator, 27" TV with VCR, full decoration all around and custom bed with Serta premium mattress. The man lives like a king in our pre-historic jails!!!
TW
Two ways, the fast and the slow:
Slow: Do nothing. Stealing occurs only when it is the best option. Once the thieves are rich, they will attempt to hold on to what they have, and the law will be put in place to keep it.
Fast: Bring out the big stick and start whomping some corrupt ass.
Slow: Do nothing. Stealing occurs only when it is the best option. Once the thieves are rich, they will attempt to hold on to what they have, and the law will be put in place to keep it.
Fast: Bring out the big stick and start whomping some corrupt ass.