Jovenel Moïse is a dictator at this point...

mountainannie

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Yes, but some just cannot help themselves.

I have read history books and articles on how Haiti got started.
I have also used the internet to research the issue.
You want to teach me HIS_Story ❓
It actually DOES take Two To Tango
There have always been these ad hominem attacks on this Board... I can not help observing that "ad hominem" is quite correct since we women seem to be able to smooth over any disagreements without any sort of personal attacks and/few responses and/or quick apologies.

"One day, an army of 70 year old women will quietly take over the world" ojala
 

Yourmaninvegas

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Yourmaninvegas really is in need of a history lesson on how Haiti started.
What history lesson do I need❓


This this how Haiti got started or not❓
 

Yourmaninvegas

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It actually DOES take Two To Tango
There have always been these ad hominem attacks on this Board... I can not help observing that "ad hominem" is quite correct since we women seem to be able to smooth over any disagreements without any sort of personal attacks and/few responses and/or quick apologies.

"One day, an army of 70 year old women will quietly take over the world" ojala
In my opinion, it is not just about being male up in here.
Individuals drag their issues from their countries of origin that have no bearing on the discussion and put them on display.
Many up in here do not like being disagreed with and cannot really handle it.
And they especially do not like being disagreed with if they think the individual disagreeing with them is not in their "self proclaimed" club.
It comes down to respect‼️
 
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NanSanPedro

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It actually DOES take Two To Tango
There have always been these ad hominem attacks on this Board... I can not help observing that "ad hominem" is quite correct since we women seem to be able to smooth over any disagreements without any sort of personal attacks and/few responses and/or quick apologies.

"One day, an army of 70 year old women will quietly take over the world" ojala
I have to agree with you, as a 66 year old guy. I don't agree with everything you write but I would never slam on you. You ooze a great personality!
 

AlterEgo

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I have to agree with you, as a 66 year old guy. I don't agree with everything you write but I would never slam on you. You ooze a great personality!
Having met you both, I think you’d get along well. Your similarities and love of Haiti certainly outweigh any minor differences 😊
It saddens me that Annie is no longer in Gascue
 

windeguy

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My personal opinion is that things would be so very much more pleasant on this board if you men would stop slinging rocks and barbs at one another.
jEveryone is entitled to their own opinions. No one has a corner on the truth. And While I Myself Have Most Certainly Been Guilty of an "I Know More Than You Do About Haiti" attitude, and have reacted sharply when I felt I was being personally attacked, I would not like the Board to return to the Bad Old Days of the Off-Topic US Politics thread.
just sayin'
What you suggest is an impossibility.

Just like a recovery in Haiti is an impossibility.
 
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windeguy

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Yes, but some just cannot help themselves.

I have read history books and articles on how Haiti got started.
I have also used the internet to research the issue.
You want to teach me HIS_Story ❓
No, I could care less to do that.

I don't need to know one fact about Haiti's history to predict its future based upon where it is now. It will fail. That is it.
 

mountainannie

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What you suggest is an impossibility.

Just like a recovery in Haiti is an impossibility.
No, I could care less to do that.

I don't need to know one fact about Haiti's history to predict its future based upon where it is now. It will fail. That is it.
States are constantly moving up and down in terms in being failed states, constantly in flux- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index.
There is no country in this hemisphere that can be considered "old" by global standards.
But then - I am an optimist - I still believe in World Peace. Silly Me.
 

windeguy

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States are constantly moving up and down in terms in being failed states, constantly in flux- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Fragile_States_Index.
There is no country in this hemisphere that can be considered "old" by global standards.
But then - I am an optimist - I still believe in World Peace. Silly Me.
History would certainly show anyone there is no hope of world peace. People are not inherently peaceful. People need laws and leadership to keep them in line or they degenerate into chaos. Even the best leadership cannot be completely successful in even one country.

History does indicate the reality of Haiti being anything but a failed state, even though where it is today is necessary and sufficient to conclude there is no hope in Haiti.
 
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mountainannie

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And then there is this nifty little index - "perception of corruption" Haiti has actually improved! When I was there it was in Last - or rather First Place! I teased one of my Haitian friends about it - saying that he should get T-Shirts made since really - that Took Some Doing! He came back to tell me that he had spoken to some of his friends in the government at the time who said "If we are so corrupt, how is it that we are so poor?" Therein lies the mystery!

Michael Deibert had a teaching gig in the Democratic Republic of Congo and used to chat with me online while he was there - he said""This place makes Haiti look like Switzerland"

 
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mountainannie

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History would certainly show anyone there is no hope of world peace. People are not inherently peaceful. People need laws and leadership to keep them in line or they degenerate into chaos. Even the best leadership cannot be completely successful in even one country.

History does indicate the reality of Haiti being anything but a failed state, even though where it is today is necessary and sufficient to conclude there is no hope in Haiti.
Yes - but I am still counting on that Army of 70 Year Old Women to eventually Take Over The World....
 

mountainannie

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Yes - but I am still counting on that Army of 70 Year Old Women to eventually Take Over The World....
This essay- from 2005- still rings in my ears -

..."What struck me most, though, in Bukavu were the women. As I drove into the city, I passed women I have known all of my life. There were old women -- old in Africa means 35 or so -- with huge bundles of bamboo sticks on their back. In most cases, the burdens were larger than the backs carrying them as they trudged up one hill after another. There were market women in their colorful dresses -- in Liberia we would call them lapas -- huddled together on the side of the road selling oranges, hard-boiled eggs and nuts.
There were young women and girls, sitting in front of village huts bathing their sons, daughters, brothers and sisters in rubber buckets. No electricity or running water was anywhere close, but one 10-year-old girl had dragged a bucket of dirty creek water up the hill to her house so she could wash her 4-year-old sister.
These were the women I grew up with in Liberia, the women all across Africa -- the worst place there is to be a woman -- who somehow manage to carry that entire continent on their backs.
In Liberia, when their sons were kidnapped and drugged to fight for rebel factions, and when their husbands came home from brothels and infected them with H.I.V., and when government soldiers invaded their houses and raped them in front of their teenage sons, these were the women who picked themselves up and kept going. They kept selling fish, cassava and kola nuts so they could feed their families. They gave birth to the children of their rapists in the forests and carried the children on their backs as they balanced jugs of water on their heads.
These are the women who went to the polls in Liberia last week. They ignored the threats of the young men who vowed more war if their chosen presidential candidate, a former soccer player named George Weah, didn't win. "No Weah, no peace," the boys yelled, chanting in the streets and around the polling stations.




The women in Liberia, by and large, ignored those boys and made Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, who is 67, the first woman to be elected to lead an African country. I wasn't surprised that Mr. Weah immediately said the vote had been rigged, although international observers said it had not been. In the half-century since the Europeans left Africa, its men have proved remarkably adept at self-delusion."..


Shirleaf Johnson went on to serve 3 terms and was winner of the Nobel Peace Prize
 

mountainannie

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and the END of that essay -

..."But after 25 years of war, genocide and anarchy, it's a good bet that Mrs. Johnson-Sirleaf will smoke the men who preceded her in running the country. It's not going to be that hard to do; she is following Charles Taylor and Samuel Doe, both butchers of the first degree.
Ever since the voting results started coming in a few days ago, showing what the Liberian women had done, I've been unable to get one image from Bukavu out of my mind. It is of an old woman, in her 30's. It was almost twilight when I saw her, walking up the hill out of the city as I drove in.
She carried so many logs that her chest almost seemed to touch the ground, so stooped was her back. Still, she trudged on, up the hill toward her home. Her husband was walking just in front of her. He carried nothing. Nothing in his hand, nothing on his shoulder, nothing on his back. He kept looking back at her, telling her to hurry up.
I want to go back to Bukavu to find that woman, and to tell her what just happened in Liberia. I want to tell her this: Your time will come, too."
 

Yourmaninvegas

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No, I could care less to do that.

I don't need to know one fact about Haiti's history to predict its future based upon where it is now.
You do not need to know the history of Haiti.
Yourmaninvegas really is in need of a history lesson on how Haiti started.
But I do ❓

Care to clear up this discrepancy of a clear statement of "do what I say not what I do"...
 

mountainannie

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"A convicted drug trafficker who skipped out on his probation and a suspected gang member believed to be part of a criminal enterprise behind an alarming spike in kidnappings, are both in U.S. custody after being flown out of Haiti Friday by federal agents.

Lissner Mathieu and Peterson Benjamin were arrested earlier this week by Haiti National Police. Mathieu, 55, pleaded guilty in 2006 to conspiring to import at least 5 kilograms of cocaine into the United States. He is accused of violating the terms of his 10-year probation when he fled to Haiti in 2008. Benjamin is facing kidnapping charges.

Mathieu, a U.S. citizen, is known by the nickname, “Ti-Nwa,” or Little Black, and has also used the last name Joseph on his various Haitian ID cards. Among the documents confiscated by police during his arrest: an official National Palace badge providing access to the presidential grounds and offices; another identifying him as the owner of an agriculture firm; and two official national identification cards with different numbers. The national IDs double as voting cards. "...

Benjamin, who also goes by the name “Ti Peter Vilaj,” is a Haitian national, and the third highest gang leader in the Village de Dieu, or Village of God, gang, Haiti National Police spokesman Garry Desrosiers said.
Desrosiers, who confirmed the transfer of the two individuals over to the Drug Enforcement Administration and Federal Bureau of Investigation, said Benjamin is implicated in about a dozen kidnapping cases, two of which involved U.S. citizens. The gang is one of several major criminal groups behind the rise in for-ransom

Read more here: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/na...cas/haiti/article249711178.html#storylink=cpy
 
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Big

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My personal opinion is that things would be so very much more pleasant on this board if you men would stop slinging rocks and barbs at one another.
jEveryone is entitled to their own opinions. No one has a corner on the truth. And While I Myself Have Most Certainly Been Guilty of an "I Know More Than You Do About Haiti" attitude, and have reacted sharply when I felt I was being personally attacked, I would not like the Board to return to the Bad Old Days of the Off-Topic US Politics thread.
just sayin'

Yes - but I am still counting on that Army of 70 Year Old Women to eventually Take Over The World....
You see, we are not too far off on our opinions. I too am hoping for an army of woman to Take Over The World. Just 33 y/o J-Lo look a likes in heels.
 

AlterEgo

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Yes - but I am still counting on that Army of 70 Year Old Women to eventually Take Over The World....
Well, let’s begin, General Annie.
1615147299600.png
 
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rfp

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My personal opinion is that things would be so very much more pleasant on this board if you men would stop slinging rocks and barbs at one another.
jEveryone is entitled to their own opinions. No one has a corner on the truth. And While I Myself Have Most Certainly Been Guilty of an "I Know More Than You Do About Haiti" attitude, and have reacted sharply when I felt I was being personally attacked, I would not like the Board to return to the Bad Old Days of the Off-Topic US Politics thread.
just sayin'
Agreed that we need to follow etiquette. The US forum was great though. There were tough dudes on both sides and the best part is that none of us were ever wrong😀
 

mountainannie

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It was via him that I discovered the fantastic fictional trilogy of Madison Smartt Bell about Toussaint and the revolution (All Souls Rising, Master of the Crossroads and The Stone That The Builder Refused). Here are the cut chapters for the first of those books:

"All Souls Rising," The Writer's Cut
Ok - I have finished Part1 - first 8 chapters .

I perhaps made a mistake in buying the Kindle edition but I simply can not afford a house big enough for the library I would have were I to buy all the books I buy.. my kindle has about 400 titles on it... ANYWAY - for others who are going to start the book - A

ND WHY DON:T WE ALL START THE TRILOGY? We, here, on the Haiti forum? Would be a great book club!
But - here is the thing - it has taken me through the first 8 chapters to understand that there MUST be a glossary? Which, of course, there is - called something like the "Devil's Other Dictionary" - at the end (which would have been an easy find in an actual book).

Plus - I do wonder how a TOTAL Haitian newbie will fare with this? With no understanding of voodoo? The book won lots of awards as a novel - yet for those who are really seeking an understanding it all? Might be a bit rough going. I already had a lot of the vocabulary - yada/petro/peristyle/hougan/mambo - lots of the loa - as well as the basic concepts and how the religion "works" - but for those with none?

Well, I will never have an answer unless the DR1 Haiti Forum Book Club takes up the challenge - Starting with "All Soul's Rising" -https://h-france.net/fffh/maybe-missed/madison-smartt-bells-haitian-revolution-trilogy/

To End my First Thought - if you get this book - READ THE GLOSSARY FIRST!

Who is in?