Jovenel Moïse is a dictator at this point...

mountainannie

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Let's not overlook that it is reported that the French had the most brutal form of slavery in the hemisphere. They only wanted the very strongest of workers and therefore allowed up to a third of the slaves to die in transit. Once on the island, the slaves were worked - well - to death. There were very few French overseers ( I am sure that NS or Nals can come up with the exact figures of the ratio of French/slaves) and the slaves often spoke the same African languages. This was most certainly in contrast to the North American form of "Plantation" slavery where the slaves were bred. (I know nothing of the slavery in Brazil - which actually had the MOST African slaves imported) -- the entire history of slavery is enormously painful and a part of US history that we are perhaps BEGINNING to deal with...(I met a French woman on the beach in LT who was "schooling" me about our "terrible history of slavery" which I thought pretty rich being so close to Haiti - but I just put my palms in the air and said "and so, Africa for you, would be - What?" levels and levels....
 
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Naked_Snake

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Let's not overlook that it is reported that the French had the most brutal form of slavery in the hemisphere. They only wanted the very strongest of workers and therefore allowed up to a third of the slaves to die in transit. Once on the island, the slaves were worked - well - to death. There were very few French overseers ( I am sure that NS or Nals can come up with the exact figures of the ratio of French/slaves) and the slaves often spoke the same African languages. This was most certainly in contrast to the North American form of "Plantation" slavery where the slaves were bred. (I know nothing of the slavery in Brazil - which actually had the MOST African slaves imported) -- the entire history of slavery is enormously painful and a part of US history that we are perhaps BEGINNING to deal with...(I met a French woman on the beach in LT who was "schooling" me about our "terrible history of slavery" which I thought pretty rich being so close to Haiti - but I just put my palms in the air and said "and so, Africa for you, would be - What?" levels and levels....
The census of the colony for the year 1790 was:

500,000 slaves
30,000 white colonists (both from the metrópolis and colonial born)
28,000 free people of color (between mixed race and free blacks)

Of the classes/castes in which the colony was divided, slaves and the white colonists were the most foreign (2/3rds of the former being African born at the time of independence, and more than half of the whites had only a couple of decades in the colony, because mortality was high among them as well). Only the free people of color could be said to be the true natives of the colony, cuz mixed race people were usually the children of the Euro master (male) and the slave (either African born or colonial born female).

In addition, the average lifespan of a field hand was 8 years, tops. At its height the colony had to import 30,000 slaves annually in order not to run out of labor out their sheer dropping dead and refusing to reproduce (on the part of the female slaves).
 

Naked_Snake

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The census of the colony for the year 1790 was:

500,000 slaves
30,000 white colonists (both from the metrópolis and colonial born)
28,000 free people of color (between mixed race and free blacks)

Of the classes/castes in which the colony was divided, slaves and the white colonists were the most foreign (2/3rds of the former being African born at the time of independence, and more than half of the whites had only a couple of decades in the colony, because mortality was high among them as well). Only the free people of color could be said to be the true natives of the colony, cuz mixed race people were usually the children of the Euro master (male) and the slave (either African born or colonial born female).

In addition, the average lifespan of a field hand was 8 years, tops. At its height the colony had to import 30,000 slaves annually in order not to run out of labor out their sheer dropping dead and refusing to reproduce (on the part of the female slaves).
Forgot to add that elder slaves a la Toussaint Louverture were a rarity in the colony, so that made him doubly exceptional in addition to the role he played in the revolution and war of independence.
 

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Fascinating history about slavery, especially how the U.S gets massaged into the topic. In 30 years Haiti will still be in utter shambles but oh we still will have the slavery issue to blame.
 

Yourmaninvegas

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Fascinating history about slavery, especially how the U.S gets massaged into the topic. In 30 years Haiti will still be in utter shambles but oh we still will have the slavery issue to blame.
Who will still have the slavery issue to blame ❓
 

mountainannie

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Fascinating history about slavery, especially how the U.S gets massaged into the topic. In 30 years Haiti will still be in utter shambles but oh we still will have the slavery issue to blame.
Haiti will always have the issue at its core. It was the only country founded in a slave revolt. It was a nation of freed slaves for 60 years before the US Civil War when Blacks were still considered property.

In 1870 - 50 YEARS after the Haitian revolution - Africans were placed in human zoos in Europe.

Haiti was the only nation in this hemisphere that was forced to pay for its freedom - based on the loss of the value of the SLAVES.. That debt was collected and enforced by the United States until 1947.

So - yup - Slavery
and Yup - The United States has been involved with the slavery issue since the inception of slavery - both in Haiti and the United States - various states sent aid to help the French to quell the Haitian revolution...

 

mountainannie

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My bad - and I just KNOW that folks will JUMP on me - Not Since The Inception of Slavery - which has been around since recorded history... But rather the Trans-Atlantic slave trade...And since the inception of the United States - 1619 --https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/1619-america-slavery.html
 

Naked_Snake

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My bad - and I just KNOW that folks will JUMP on me - Not Since The Inception of Slavery - which has been around since recorded history... But rather the Trans-Atlantic slave trade...And since the inception of the United States - 1619 --https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/1619-america-slavery.html
People in the States tend to forget that New England wasn't always the most economically/politically strong part of the 13 colonies. Southerners, specially Virginians, were the ones calling the shots in the early Republic with their plantations and all, although interestingly enough, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson didn't have the opulence of Caribbean planters.
 

mountainannie

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The census of the colony for the year 1790 was:

500,000 slaves
30,000 white colonists (both from the metrópolis and colonial born)
28,000 free people of color (between mixed race and free blacks)

Of the classes/castes in which the colony was divided, slaves and the white colonists were the most foreign (2/3rds of the former being African born at the time of independence, and more than half of the whites had only a couple of decades in the colony, because mortality was high among them as well). Only the free people of color could be said to be the true natives of the colony, cuz mixed race people were usually the children of the Euro master (male) and the slave (either African born or colonial born female).

In addition, the average lifespan of a field hand was 8 years, tops. At its height the colony had to import 30,000 slaves annually in order not to run out of labor out their sheer dropping dead and refusing to reproduce (on the part of the female slaves).
There was also the issue that the Free People of Color - were often much better educated than anyone else on the Island (so I have read) as many were sent back to France for their education. As I understood, there was a thriving cultural scene involving only themselves. The French had a very strict "color code" -- (which also carried over to Louisiana which was also a French colony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_Noir
 

Naked_Snake

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There was also the issue that the Free People of Color - were often much better educated than anyone else on the Island (so I have read) as many were sent back to France for their education. As I understood, there was a thriving cultural scene involving only themselves. The French had a very strict "color code" -- (which also carried over to Louisiana which was also a French colony) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_Noir
Louis XV and Choiseul tried to implement a ban against their presence in the metropolis after the 1760's, but it failed to gain traction due to the enormous political power that white planters (ironically) had at the court. We can say whatever we want about them and their harsh treatment of the African slaves, but those French planters really cared for the well being of their colored sons/daughters, even more so than their counterparts on the British/Dutch islands, which instituted a ban against their having large properties and a certain amount of slaves.
 

mountainannie

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Here is an excerpt from Bob Corbett's essay that I posted on the other thread - Haitian History for Newbies -

..."A second group of slaves who became free were the mulattos, the children of white masters and slave women. These children were in a middle ground, uncomfortable to both slaves and whites. The slaves never knew how the white man would respond to his child, but often the slave owner didn't want to be reminded of his paternity. Thus mulattos were not welcomed in either community. Many mulattos received their freedom and formed a special middle class in the colonial period.

A special class of freed slaves emerged. About 1/2 of them were freed black slaves and about 1/2 of them were mulattos. They could receive some education, operate businesses, own property and in general imitate the French.

This imitation of the French became the hallmark of these freedmen. They wanted a clear separation from their slave backgrounds. Thus they imitated the whites. They adopted their religion, language, dress, culture, education and ways. But, most importantly for this story, they learned the value of slave labor. The colonial French heritage carried on in the Haitian elite's imitation of the French labor system. This is an important factor in Haiti's later misery."...
 

Naked_Snake

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But, most importantly for this story, they learned the value of slave labor. The colonial French heritage carried on in the Haitian elite's imitation of the French labor system. This is an important factor in Haiti's later misery."...
We have that here as well, which makes me pessimistic about the migration thing ever being solved in a non-violent way. Elites here reeeeally love having some slave and/or quasi slave labor at hand.
 
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Africaida

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Louis XV and Choiseul tried to implement a ban against their presence in the metropolis after the 1760's, but it failed to gain traction due to the enormous political power that white planters (ironically) had at the court. We can say whatever we want about them and their harsh treatment of the African slaves, but those French planters really cared for the well being of their colored sons/daughters, even more so than their counterparts on the British/Dutch islands, which instituted a ban against their having large properties and a certain amount of slaves.

Excusez-moi but it wasn't done because of they cared about the well being of their so-call children (born out of rape), it was designed as a divide & conquer strategy to stratify colonial societies (If I can locate it, I will link it, I read an official document in French explaining it). Let's not romanticize it as it was done throughout the Caribbean and some part of Africa as well.
 

Big

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sla
Haiti will always have the issue at its core. It was the only country founded in a slave revolt. It was a nation of freed slaves for 60 years before the US Civil War when Blacks were still considered property.

In 1870 - 50 YEARS after the Haitian revolution - Africans were placed in human zoos in Europe.

Haiti was the only nation in this hemisphere that was forced to pay for its freedom - based on the loss of the value of the SLAVES.. That debt was collected and enforced by the United States until 1947.

So - yup - Slavery
and Yup - The United States has been involved with the slavery issue since the inception of slavery - both in Haiti and the United States - various states sent aid to help the French to quell the Haitian revolution...

slavery has been around the world and back in every culture. You can use it as a crutch or pass it out as a free pass 100 years later and/or let people use it as a safety net for every failure and short coming, that's you. Present day Haiti's dysfunctional country and complete chaos has nothing to do with slavery. But it does make people feel better to make excuses on their behalf.
 

Naked_Snake

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Excusez-moi but it wasn't done because of they cared about the well being of their so-call children (born out of rape), it was designed as a divide & conquer strategy to stratify colonial societies (If I can locate it, I will link it, I read an official document in French explaining it). Let's not romanticize it as it was done throughout the Caribbean and some part of Africa as well.
a. Not all of those relationships were #MeToo things (specially not the ones between Euro man and mixed race woman). Some of those pairings were even sought by elite mixed race families, specially from the South. Read the biography of Julian Raimond and/or the story of his family in the island and you will see. Another example is the family of Andre Rigaud, which even in their revolutionary, anti-white phase, still sought European marriages for himself and his brothers.

b. Unlike the British/Dutch colonies (whose colonists always made sure to bring their families), the French situation was analogous to the Spanish/Portuguese one in the sense of it being primarily of a male variety, so they had very little space to be choosy, specially in Saint-Domingue, which was a new colony in comparison with Martinique and Guadeloupe. And yes, I continue to sustain my point, the inheritance regime was quite generous there, and this is corroborated by contemporaries of rival colonies, like Edward Long, which was the colonial administrator for Jamaica.
 

Naked_Snake

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a. Not all of those relationships were #MeToo things (specially not the ones between Euro man and mixed race woman). Some of those pairings were even sought by elite mixed race families, specially from the South. Read the biography of Julian Raimond and/or the story of his family in the island and you will see. Another example is the family of Andre Rigaud, which even in their revolutionary, anti-white phase, still sought European marriages for himself and his brothers.

b. Unlike the British/Dutch colonies (whose colonists always made sure to bring their families), the French situation was analogous to the Spanish/Portuguese one in the sense of it being primarily of a male variety, so they had very little space to be choosy, specially in Saint-Domingue, which was a new colony in comparison with Martinique and Guadeloupe. And yes, I continue to sustain my point, the inheritance regime was quite generous there, and this is corroborated by contemporaries of rival colonies, like Edward Long, which was the colonial administrator for Jamaica.
To further illustrate my point, ancien regime French inheritance laws didn't have the unigeniture of their Germanic counterparts, and furthermore, every relative of the deceased man could challenge the will provided the family links could be proven, even if he/she didn't carry the surname of said deceased fellow. That regime of endless division of inheritance the Haitians would carry into the Republican era, and is one of the reasons why large agrarian holdings don't exist there.
 

Naked_Snake

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To further illustrate my point, ancien regime French inheritance laws didn't have the unigeniture of their Germanic counterparts, and furthermore, every relative of the deceased man could challenge the will provided the family links could be proven, even if he/she didn't carry the surname of said deceased fellow. That regime of endless division of inheritance the Haitians would carry into the Republican era, and is one of the reasons why large agrarian holdings don't exist there.
one of the reasons that explains why*
 

Yourmaninvegas

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slavery has been around the world and back in every culture. You can use it as a crutch or pass it out as a free pass 100 years later and/or let people use it as a safety net for every failure and short coming, that's you. Present day Haiti's dysfunctional country and complete chaos has nothing to do with slavery. But it does make people feel better to make excuses on their behalf.
Only you are focusing on slavery as the problem of Haiti.
News flash for ya my man...
Haiti was formed as a country after a SLAVE REVOLT.
One of the problems I am focused on is that the slave holding countries did not let Haiti enter the world economy after independence because of the revolution of Haiti did not fit the narrative.
Things would have quite different if the newly formed government of Haiti had of been welcomed into the world economy say like after the English colonies revolted against the crown...

No excuses ‼️
Echa your guilt someplace else
And leave the problems you have with your country of origin there also.
 
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Big

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Only you are focusing on slavery as the problem of Haiti.
News flash for ya my man...
Haiti was formed as a country after a SLAVE REVOLT.
One of the problems I am focused on is that the slave holding countries did not let Haiti enter the world economy after independence because of the revolution of Haiti did not fit the narrative.
Things would have quite different if the newly formed government of Haiti had of been welcomed into the world economy say like after the English colonies revolted against the crown...

No excuses ‼️
Echa your guilt someplace else
And leave the problems you have with your country of origin there also.
wrong again as usual!!, on so many fronts. Stick to union matters at the N.J bus drivers transit association. You know less about Haiti than anyone. Never even entered but yet you are an expert. Actually, as pointed out previously, aren't you an expert on every subject matter. lol
 
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