One Island, One Country.

Mr_DR

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The haitian had lurned to survive with what they have for the past 2oo years so they got good at surviving with very little ,so when the energy crisis will hurt other countries ,Haitian will not have any problemes.
Haiti has a lot ,lot, lot,... (NOT!!)

You mean 200 years with the support that every nations give them.

Do you know all the goods, meds and other supplies Haiti gets donated by other countries?
I think you are really dreaming and i think you would have a better chance at winning a 300 millions power ball jackpot.
 

Exxtol

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  • More than 87 schools servicing more than 12,000 children living in the bateyes, free of charge.
  • More than 173,000 free medical visits in 2006.
  • Some sugar companies offer all workers, their companion and children, workers’ health insurance.
  • More than 124,000 free dental in 2006.

DR Facts

-NALs


"Brought to you by the People of the DR’s Sugar Industry".

Thanks for another lesson on "facts".

Edit to add: Just saw A. Hidalgo's post

--Exxtol
 
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Haitian101

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You mean 200 years with the support that every nations give them.

Do you know all the goods, meds and other supplies Haiti gets donated by other countries?
I think you are really dreaming and i think you would have a better chance at winning a 300 millions power ball jackpot.



Please tell me you're just being mean.

Of the 200 years you are talking about, Haiti spent the first 100 years of independence under a virtual embargo during which time, the newly independent nation was constantly threatened by France, USA, Spain, England, and Germany (Prussia). As a matter of facts, Haiti was forced to pay huge amount of money to those powers who took turn 'raping' the nation. Their tactics were to weaken the nation so that no other colonies would follow their example.

It is also during those first hundred years that Haiti financed the "Bolivarian Revolution" which sent a domino effect ( freedom wave) throughout the region and resulted in the independence of most Latin America's countries.

Then came the infamous US invasion in 1915. The American occupiers ruled over Haiti with a "vengeance". After looting Haiti's treasory, they left the country in a bitter ethnic warfare.

Haiti's history is 'unique'. Its wars and its sufferings are often misunderstood because almost no other nations have had to go through the same obtacles it encountered on its path and those who unfortunately had, have long lost their identity if not their existence.
 

bob saunders

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Please tell me you're just being mean.

Of the 200 years you are talking about, Haiti spent the first 100 years of independence under a virtual embargo during which time, the newly independent nation was constantly threatened by France, USA, Spain, England, and Germany (Prussia). As a matter of facts, Haiti was forced to pay huge amount of money to those powers who took turn 'raping' the nation. Their tactics were to weaken the nation so that no other colonies would follow their example.
------------------------
IN WHAT WAY WAS THE COUNTRY RAPED- If they were not invaded how could they be raped,and I believe France was the only country Haiti made money to.




It is also during those first hundred years that Haiti financed the "Bolivarian Revolution" which sent a domino effect ( freedom wave) throughout the region and resulted in the independence of most Latin America's countries.

Then came the infamous US invasion in 1915. The American occupiers ruled over Haiti with a "vengeance". After looting Haiti's treasory, they left the country in a bitter ethnic warfare.------------------------------ Ethnic warfare - between who and whom

Haiti's history is 'unique'. Its wars and its sufferings are often misunderstood because almost no other nations have had to go through the same obtacles it encountered on its path and those who unfortunately had, have long lost their identity if not their existence.----------- You correct, unique but many country's have it tough- Israel for example.


There have certainly been many difficulties with Haiti and some can be blamed on outside interference, but Haitians have to take responsibility for their own country and what they as Haitians have allowed to happen. Only Haitians can solve Haiti's problems.
 

Naked_Snake

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bob saunders asked: Ethnic warfare - between who and whom?

That's easy to answer bob, the ethnic warfare (although I would put it more like a struggle for political power) have been between the light-skinned elite and the black majority of that nation. When the US occupied the country on 1915, they found the blacks firmly entrenched in power. The marines would not only return the light skinned elite to their ancient leading posts, but they would also erase the article in the haitian constitution that banned whites from having property in the country. Although the light skinned dominion in haitian politics would be rather short-lived, specially after Francois Duvalier (Papa Doc) came into power on the late 50's and started his purges against that class, specially the ones that his Ton Ton Macoutes, the haitian blackshirts, did against the elites of J?r?mie on the months of August, September and October of the year 1964 (events that are named by the public "the J?r?mie Vespers").
 
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Haitian101

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There have certainly been many difficulties with Haiti and some can be blamed on outside interference, but Haitians have to take responsibility for their own country and what they as Haitians have allowed to happen. Only Haitians can solve Haiti's problems.

That's very true and like Atahualpa, the last free Inca King said, "conquer or be conquered that's the rule of war". The past centuries were a period of open imperialistic wars and Haiti's enemies were just too many and too powerful for the lonely nation. Therefore, most of its resources were directed toward national security which compromised its economic growth. That was the point I was trying to make.

However, eventhough Haiti's "uniqueness" hurt its development, Haitian politicians greatly contributed to the country's current economic desaster. It's true Haiti must now take advantage of the new world order to break free from its past. You are quite right on your assessment.
 

pedrochemical

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Originally Posted by Mr_DR View Post
You mean 200 years with the support that every nations give them.

Do you know all the goods, meds and other supplies Haiti gets donated by other countries?


This is also a partial reality.
As I said in an earlier post - Aid to Haiti is an industry and a career path. The people involved have a vested interest in keeping the scam running.
'LoadOfBull' already got it wrong when he described Haitians as being addicted to aid.
There is virtually no freakin' aid that gets to Haitians!
Plenty is given and plenty is spent. Spent on top of the range Land Cruisers, expensive hotels and apartments, flying in experts to re-assess the problems, nights out at the 'Soft Lady', 'Millennium' and 'Platinium', beef fillet with the Roquefort sauce at 'Quartier Latin' and long weekends in Jacmel. (This is the life!!)
For the most part, Haitians do not receive aid- Haiti receives aid and the privileged spend it on themselves.


How much private investment compared to aid do you think there really is in Haiti?
I have seen 300million dollars of private money in the past 2 years, with another 200 million coming next year. This money is from one sector by just 2 companies. This has a positive impact on Haitian economics.
The aid and the distributors of aid have negligible positive effect on Haiti.
Nobody who has any experience of the current situation would say that aid is substantially helping Haiti.
What is helping Haiti in the short to medium term are people like the Irish, Venezuelans, Mexicans, Chinese and the Cubans actually doing stuff rather than just measuring stuff! eg. Building power stations, cell phone networks, infrastructure and creating work so people can live like they want to - with self respect and dignity.

To sum up ? Haitians are not dependent on aid.

Charity is equally misapplied - another international scandal.

Merry Christmas - pass the eggnog!
 

NALs

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pedrochemical said:
This is The Dominican Republic forum - A day without Chinese, Colombians, maybe even Gringos, would not impact The Dominican Republic like a 'Day Without Haitians'. How many more Haitians are there in the Dominican Republic than Colombians, Chinese and Cubans combined? - Genuine question - NALs will know the answer to this. It is Haitians and Dominicans that we are talking about here. Sure a labour void would eventually be filled by the Filipinos, Guatemalans etc. - but the void is currently filled with Haitians - that is what we are discussing - plus, most of the Cubans or Chinese I see here would at least figure in the most affluent three fifths of Dominican society. Certainly, the Chinese I know in Santo Domingo would not consider the jobs and payscale that Haitians live with, any more than the Dominicans would.
You cannot go on the 'a day without Haitian' example, assuming they would just disappear and not assume that they would be replaced as quickly as they disappeared. That is too convenient to make a pro-Haitian illegal immigration case, which lends itself to portraying a doom and gloom scenario for the Dominican economy if the Haitians were to suddenly disappear.

Either the assumption is that Haitians disappear gradually and they are gradually replaced by either new labor, technology or both; or Haitians disappear overnight and they are replaced by new labor, technology or both overnight as well.

pedrochemical said:
Again, The Dominican Republic is a net receiver of aid - not a net giver.
Foreign aid to the DR has been on a downward spiral since the mid-1990s. Every year the county is assigned less than the year before. In the mid-1990s the DR was getting well over $300 million in foreign aid, now its down to $77 million. It won't be long before the DR government ceases being a receiver of foreign aid, that's if we ignore that the amount of aid it currently receives already has little effect on the functions of the government.

In Haiti, foreign aid is the bread and butter of its government. Without such, the government would collapse.

pedrochemical said:
Not true - this place used to be a playground for the rich and famous. I am not saying that is a positive thing, but having seen a lot of Caribbean coastline I know Haiti has some of the most beautiful.
It was an upmarket destination for film stars and successful social climbers.
Nobody comes here now as it ain't up to much. But it used to be - really it did. Just go to some of the hotels and look at the old photos of the visiting gliterati.
An example of this legacy is at the Ollofson Hotel where Graeme Green roomed whilst writing 'The Comedians'.
The difference between today's Haiti and the Haiti of yesteryear with respect to tourism is that today there is hardly a tourist industry to speak of whereas in the past there was something. But, it was nowhere as popular, large, or as important to its economy in terms of percent of GDP as the current Dominican tourist industry is to the DR.

I don't know how you can say that those things were not true, in the book "A Guide to the West Indies" published in 1908, this is what it said (read what's in the red box):

haiti1ej8.jpg


haiti2fs0.jpg


pedrochemical said:
Question NALs - How long after Trujillo lost his grip did The Dominican Republic really begin to flourish? - where are we in a comparative time-line as regards Haiti?
Maybe there is hope?
The DR began to flourish during and because of the Trujillo dictatorship. The 1960s was a lost decade due to the disturbances, but as soon that the dust settled; growth returned with such force that by the mid-1970s the DR ceased to be a country of rich and poor and became a country of an ever growing middle class. By the mid-1980s the DR ceased to be a rural country and became an urban society. By the mid-1990s the growth in the middle class ceased to be directly related to government positions (hence, its exclusive presence in SDQ) and grew exponentially from the private sector (hence its mushrooming all over the country).

Haiti did not flourished during its Duvalier dictatorship, growth has been sluggish at best, the country is still a country of rich and poor with a tiny tiny middle class directly related to the civil service, and well over 70% of the population is still rural. There is practically zero direct foreign investment. The government depends on foreign aid to exist, depends on the UN to maintain the peace, depends on remittances to sustain the meager economy, and is heavily challenged by drug lords and NGO's that have chipped away its legitimacy and power.

Now, I'm not saying that its all lost. But, Haiti is burdened with a problem of monumental proportion that few countries on earth and no other country in the Americas is facing or ever faced in their recent history.

-NALs
 

NALs

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Just a little suspicious when the link is "Brought to you by the People of the DR’s Sugar Industry".
What is the suspicious part?

I think you are too quickly to apply the Circumstantial Ad Hominem fallacy.

Are the news articles in that website false?

Are the comments made by the Dominicans and Haitians in that website false?

Is the data in that website false?

What is so suspicious when they make sure people know who is responsible for collecting all the information they are presenting on that website?

The information in that website is no more "suspicious" than the information being spread by pro-Haitian groups, IMO.

-NALs :ermm:
 
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leodabull

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This goes out to pedrochemical and whoever else wants to assume I said something that has not been said by others (not just Dominicans). My dear Mr. Pedrito u r obviously taking too much of your own ?chemicals?. Slow down dog, don?t want u to OD. And it is obvious YOU did not READ what I posted in regards to Haiti. Instead you insulted me and tried to discredit my character without knowing who I am as a person. Im a let you know something dude...I own 2 homes here in DR one in Capital and other in La Romana where I employ 2 Haitian men at each residence to care for my property and pay, feed , and clothe them far better than my fellow Domincan, Chinese, Italian, Spaniard, or German. I recently paid for each of their fares to visit their family in Haiti. 4 tickets round trip. I have always discussed the future of their country?s present state as well as history. And do u know the reason why they r here? Hmmmm Pedrito? Because there home Haiti has nothing for them but misery. Come on dude dont ever try to battle with me. Dont come at me with a hand gun kid, come at me with an ARMY!!!! Enjoy your holidays...................Leo
 

pedrochemical

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Very funny indeed - you obviously thought that one through well.
You are not worth the energy though - an army, a handgun???

LMAO

Happy Holidays to you and your Haitians too!
 

Arrica

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Migration stats

For example, since the last flooding of Gonaive, about one third of the population of this Haitian city has transfered to the DR?;

JRMirador,
Apart from not that the DR is attractive for and attracting many (thousands) of Haitians that seek work and improved living, I would question your statistics - I have just been to the place, and it still seems pretty full; besides the ones that have left are ' temporarily' or otherwise mainly with family or job in Port au Prince.

On the integrated Island part; It was some 150 years ago for some years, however customs, language, culture etc. are keen dividers for any integration processes - only with political will and economic transfers to improve socio-economic conditions would an integration become realistic. The EU project started in 1954 with the Coal and Steel Union between countries that had much closer political, economic and social ties; slowly, ever so slowly and with many caveats and changes is the Union becoming a reality - that only happens in line with that people stop fearing for that they will lose their cultural differences, and that socio-economic and political integration can take place and -at times- enhance the cultural specialities.
 

Texas Bill

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I apologise for being totally off thread, but I have to answer that comment by Texas bill.


Dude,
In some senses you are correct - "Americanism" (interesting word) has grown ugly for a lot of innocent people around the world- so I am anti- "Americanism".

I do however think that in a lot of ways The Unites States of America is the greatest country on earth - founded on great ideas and built by inspired and inspirational people.
Also, Americans I meet on my travels are normal rational people like most other people I meet.
I am definitely not anti-American.

There are a lot of people who are not happy about the "blow the crap out of you in your own country" attitude that "Americanism" seems to precipitate. The guys in charge of American foreign policy have, in my view, been a bit on the over-aggressive side in recent years. Many people agree. Many Americans agree.

Also, when it comes to the "racial and ethnic pride" you mentioned- please tell me which ethnicity you think this might apply to in my case?

Pedro (bully?) Chemical

Well, "DUDE", you seem to be stuck on Track #1 with your meandering references to "Americanism" and such.
Are you referring to (by your reference of "blow the crap out of you in your own backyard" ) Bosnia-Herzsogovina, to Iraq, to Somalia, or to Afganistan?
I just fail to associate the statement with any particular event, or series of events.
I will say that the main thrust of the US Foreign Policy since the end of WWII has been ANTI-BULLYISM by a nation or coalition of nations. The US hasn't always had the support of the international community in that endeavor, but has remained steadfast, never-the-less.
Now, if you don't agree, then you must disagree with the concept of clipping the wings of bullies and terriorists by whatever means present themselves.
Personally, I consider such action necessary to my continued well-being and freedom from fear.
Also, I find it significant that you make no mention of the billions spent on medical and social aid to the African Nations, DUDE. It would seem to me that you would at least recognize that positive bit of history along with all the negativism about the 'Americanism" that has precipitated such aid in the first place.
Frankly, I am of the opinion that we are about to see a big change in the policies of many nations who have been driven by fanatical and semi-fanatical fundamentalists who have been "following" their "calling". Look a bit into the background of the current political leaders of some of the countries and you will know of whom I speak.
As to which "ethnicity" might apply in your case, I haven't the foggiest and could care less. The use of that quoted phrase was in generalities and is applicable across the broad range of society. Where do YOU think you fit in??

Texas Bill
 
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bob saunders

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.
I will say that the main thrust of the US Foreign Policy since the end of WWII has been ANTI-BULLYISM by a nation or coalition of nations. The US hasn't always had the support of the international community in that endeavor, but has remained steadfast, never-the-less.
Now, if you don't agree, then you must disagree with the concept of clipping the wings of bullies and terriorists by whatever means present themselves.
end of quote

------------------------------------------------- So was the American invasion of DR, Haiti, and Grenada anti-bullism? I am a pro-American Canadian but it would be a stretch to call any of those actions anything but what they were, and it certainly wasn't anti-bullyism or anti-terrorism.
 

Texas Bill

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.
I will say that the main thrust of the US Foreign Policy since the end of WWII has been ANTI-BULLYISM by a nation or coalition of nations. The US hasn't always had the support of the international community in that endeavor, but has remained steadfast, never-the-less.
Now, if you don't agree, then you must disagree with the concept of clipping the wings of bullies and terriorists by whatever means present themselves.
end of quote

------------------------------------------------- So was the American invasion of DR, Haiti, and Grenada anti-bullism? I am a pro-American Canadian but it would be a stretch to call any of those actions anything but what they were, and it certainly wasn't anti-bullyism or anti-terrorism.

Except for the Haiti incident, the invasion of Grenada in the 80's and theDr in the 60's were synonimous with Frontier Protection against the enchroachment of the Communism movement beyond the Cuban sphere of influence. It's just that simple. Of course you can read almost anything into those two movements that you wish, but the facts remain the same. The Dominican intrusion was to nip in the bud a serious Communist threat which the US wanted to keep contained to the Cuban Islands where they could be better controled. the same philosophy applies to the Grenada intrusion.
I use the term "intrusion" to differentiate any intent on the part of the US to establish permanance to the act engaged in. Many people today deal in semantics so I just thought I'd add my two-cents worth into the equation.
Essentially, the US was saying, What you area doing is a No-No andwe aren'tgoing to stand idly by and allow you to establish a Communist government anyplace else in the Caribbean. That's it in a nutshell. If you interpret History any differently, that's your prerogative, but you'll be WRONG.
As to the Haitian intrusion, the country was in severe internal turmoil and virtually in a civil war when the US stepped in and escorted Aristides out of the Country to a place of personal safety.
At the time the excuse was to protect his physical person. The true reasons have yet to be determined by History, but I would imagine there was more to the act than meets the eye at first glance. In retrospect, it was the best thing to happen, regardless of the reasons. The country still hasn't regained it's equalibrium, financially or politically, so whose fault is it really. I don't think that shoe fits the foot of the USA, since there were plenty of other countries in the UN mix of forces present.The Haitians are still where they were, a failed state, before Aristides was toppled by the opposition in country. The fact that there were nefarious elements who moved in to fill the political void was a common occurance as always in similar circumstances.
In a nutshell, you have your opinions regarding the real intentions of the US by the actions they took and I have mine which are based on historical fact and understanding of the forces which drive nation interests in the international arena. These forces are far more complicated than the average citizen has the background to interpret qualitatively, thus they are led to make the determinations based purely on emotions and news reports which ate frequently misleading depending on the agency doing the reporting.
Take it all with a grain of salt and don't jump to conclusions without checking the sources VERY CAREFULLY.

Texas Bill
 

bob saunders

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Except for the Haiti incident, the invasion of Grenada in the 80's and theDr in the 60's were synonimous with Frontier Protection against the enchroachment of the Communism movement beyond the Cuban sphere of influence. It's just that simple. Of course you can read almost anything into those two movements that you wish, but the facts remain the same. The Dominican intrusion was to nip in the bud a serious Communist threat which the US wanted to keep contained to the Cuban Islands where they could be better controled. the same philosophy applies to the Grenada intrusion.
Texas Bill

A very patriotic response and one I would expect from a former American military officer, but what gives or gave the USA the right to determine a sovereign countrys government. Remember the US invaded the DR twice. The first time had nothing to do with a Communist threat and it's doubtful the second did. The reasons you give above make sense but are not justified in any way.
 

Naked_Snake

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A very patriotic response and one I would expect from a former American military officer, but what gives or gave the USA the right to determine a sovereign countrys government. Remember the US invaded the DR twice. The first time had nothing to do with a Communist threat and it's doubtful the second did. The reasons you give above make sense but are not justified in any way.

Specially when we take into account the fact that if there's something that characterized the dominican armed forces of the era (even the military men on the rebel camp like Caama?o) was their militant anti-communism. If there's something that "El Jefe" assured himself from was in preventing communist ideas from gaining hold on the ranks. Some people will tell: "but Caama?o got cuban funding for his doomed guerrilla of 1973", I'd say yes, but you have to take into account that Caama?o was willing to ally himself with anyone that would provide funds to his anti-balaguerist expedition. Likewise, there a lot of guerrilla movements that Castro would finance worldwide that were far from being communist on their outlook, just to spite the "gringos". So Bill, my friend, you'll have to come with a better excuse than that, cuz' nobody believes in the communist scapegoat anymore, specially in light of the incompetent govs. that the DR have had since the defeat of the constitutionalist movement.