AntiHatianismo

[mountainannie]

yo, the thread is ANTIHAITIANISMO... if you want to talk about the US bailout and stuff you have to wait til you have 500 posts and then take ti to the off topic section.. These guys are all conservative to the libertarian strain and they have been waiting for any new liberal progressive anyone who will argue with them until the planets spin out of orbit.

there is plenty to talk about vis a vis the DR and Haiti before AE comes back from visiting with her grandkids and shuts the thread down

or, you can carry on talking about the US policy and that will CERTAINLY get the thread shut down.

 

[Naked_Snake]

yo, the thread is ANTIHAITIANISMO... if you want to talk about the US bailout and stuff you have to wait til you have 500 posts and then take ti to the off topic section.. These guys are all conservative to the libertarian strain and they have been waiting for any new liberal progressive anyone who will argue with them until the planets spin out of orbit.

there is plenty to talk about vis a vis the DR and Haiti before AE comes back from visiting with her grandkids and shuts the thread down

or, you can carry on talking about the US policy and that will CERTAINLY get the thread shut down.

What is there to discuss, really? That natural, anti-inmigration feelings from a poor country will continue to be spinned as "racism" by Jesuitards and other "progressive" NGO's for the centuries to come (or until a tsunami comes and wipes Hispaniola out from the face of the earth)?

 

[AlterEgo]

yo, the thread is ANTIHAITIANISMO... if you want to talk about the US bailout and stuff you have to wait til you have 500 posts and then take ti to the off topic section.. These guys are all conservative to the libertarian strain and they have been waiting for any new liberal progressive anyone who will argue with them until the planets spin out of orbit.

there is plenty to talk about vis a vis the DR and Haiti before AE comes back from visiting with her grandkids and shuts the thread down

or, you can carry on talking about the US policy and that will CERTAINLY get the thread shut down.

Wow, spent the day with Mr. AE flea-marketing and visiting the grandkids and come back to this mess.

I will clean up the thread of anything off-topic - which is AntiHaitianismo in case you all forgot - and give the thread another chance to stay on topic.

Some days you guys need someone standing over you with a whip!!!

 

[bob saunders]

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...3YHoDA&usg=AFQjCNHbuk67oihT_2YXXmigsCr7ooPIQw
Not a Cockfight: Rethinking Haitian-Dominican Relations

 

[GWOZOZO]

LOL!!!


And you really believe that too, don't you?

LOL!!!!!!


As if!

Well go ahead..show us proof of anti-dominicanisme in haitian culture...thouht.....books from our political or intellectual leaders.....or anything else.

DR is just an afterthought in the Haitian mindset.

So go ahead Pichardo...we are waiting.

 

[GWOZOZO]

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...3YHoDA&usg=AFQjCNHbuk67oihT_2YXXmigsCr7ooPIQw
Not a Cockfight: Rethinking Haitian-Dominican Relations

Nice link

"It also bears noting from the outset that the fatal-conflict model approximates
Dominican perspectives more fully than it reflects Haitian perspectives.
It is little exaggeration to say that for most Haitians the Dominican
Republic might as well be on the other side of the planet or is at most that
sugar-plantationn etherworldt hat swallows up the most desperateo f Haiti's
emigrants"

"Contrary to the fatal-conflict model, most Haitians probably
underestimate the importance of the Dominican Republic to their country
generally and have little accurate knowledge of its place in the survival strategies
of the hundreds of thousands of their compatriots who live across the
border. Surely, the Dominican Republic has low visibility in part because
those Haitians who go to the Dominican Republic are drawn from the poorest
and least vocal segments of society. But whatever the reasons, the Dominican
obsession with Haiti is an unrequitedp assion:Haitians do not regardDominicans
with anything like the same feeling as that of Dominicans looking upon
Haitians."

As I have said DR is an afterthought in the Haitian mind. And the Haitians in DR are rarely acknowleged as part of our diaspora. Visit any diaspora Haitian websites and you will see English..French and Kreyol language discussions...never ..never Spanish.

 

[Major448]

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j...3YHoDA&usg=AFQjCNHbuk67oihT_2YXXmigsCr7ooPIQw
Not a Cockfight: Rethinking Haitian-Dominican Relations

Good link!!!

 

[Naked_Snake]

Moreau de Saint Mery described also the spanish side of la Hispaniola (2 volumes), which doesn't fit with Hazard's allegation :

A topographical and political description of the Spanish part of Saint-Domingo (Open Library)

A topographical and political description of the Spanish part of Saint-Domingo (Open Library)

I would really love it if you could get a translation of his work on the French part, which is even more detailed than the above for obvious reasons (him being a French colonist and all).

 

[Naked_Snake]

As I have said DR is an afterthought in the Haitian mind. And the Haitians in DR are rarely acknowleged as part of our diaspora. Visit any diaspora Haitian websites and you will see English..French and Kreyol language discussions...never ..never Spanish.

And as I already told you earlier, it's always Jesuitards and other "progressive" NGO's the ones fanning the flames. If they weren't so "in your face" with their whine, whine, whine and complain, complain, complain, people here would only regard this issue as an afterthought. There are far graver issues at hand as it is. God, I would love it if one of our presidents had enough balls to "pull a Putin" on them. gre:

 

[Wishing you well]

Nice link

"It also bears noting from the outset that the fatal-conflict model approximates
Dominican perspectives more fully than it reflects Haitian perspectives.
It is little exaggeration to say that for most Haitians the Dominican
Republic might as well be on the other side of the planet or is at most that
sugar-plantationn etherworldt hat swallows up the most desperateo f Haiti's
emigrants"

"Contrary to the fatal-conflict model, most Haitians probably
underestimate the importance of the Dominican Republic to their country
generally and have little accurate knowledge of its place in the survival strategies
of the hundreds of thousands of their compatriots who live across the
border. Surely, the Dominican Republic has low visibility in part because
those Haitians who go to the Dominican Republic are drawn from the poorest
and least vocal segments of society. But whatever the reasons, the Dominican
obsession with Haiti is an unrequitedp assion:Haitians do not regardDominicans
with anything like the same feeling as that of Dominicans looking upon
Haitians."

As I have said DR is an afterthought in the Haitian mind. And the Haitians in DR are rarely acknowleged as part of our diaspora. Visit any diaspora Haitian websites and you will see English..French and Kreyol language discussions...never ..never Spanish.

We're discussing anti-haitianism and not the other way around. If it wasn't due to the borders and goes on there, the invasion and barbarities committed back then, also at last, the immigration issues; the Dominicans would not even remember who was at the west of the island.

In fact, not one in the entire world cares as is.

 

[mofongoloco]

racism, like antihaitianismo, often are manipulated by powerful people for economic or self serving interests. For example, in perilous times, when a leader has expended their resources and lack funds to entertain the masses, he resorts to invent or highlight that ever present boogeyman.

Dominicans have all rights to remember those dark times of the haitian occupation. Maybe the op could enlighten us about haitian feelings towards dominicans. For example, the massacre (el corte) carried out by trujillo.

bingo!

 

[dogstar]

ominicans have all rights to remember those dark times of the haitian occupation. My wife, a Dom Rep high school grad, never new Haiti occupied the whole Island.
We live in a boarder town and Haitians come everyday to work here, they speak Dominican, when I ask locals why they don't speak Creole, they think me crazy.
Oh, and why are Spaniards considered white. They are Mediterranean brown,and mixed with Moors.

 

[PICHARDO]

Your wife is a high school grad from the DR and never knew Haiti was in charge of the whole island? !!! ???????

Wow! That's a first!


About Spaniards? Please DO take a trip to Spain and travel the streets a bit...


As far as Dominicans remembering anything from 1822 to 1844? What's there to be had today?

Anti-Haitianismo was cradled by Trujillo as his regime alone. Before Trujillo, there was little to be said of any type of Anti-Anything in the DR.

Dominicans back then didn't trust Haitians as much as they don't trust them nowadays. That fall out of trust came to be because the history of the Haitian invasion, control, abuse, ouster and attempts of invading again to take over plenty of times.

The relation of Haitians and Dominicans is not that far off from the relations of Mexicans and Americans.

The damage already has been done on both sides and there's little that can move that Elephant, if anything, off from the island.

If you think there's any hate against Haitians in the DR, by the grace of God don't get caught in Haiti when they feel anger towards Dominicans. Whilst being a Dominican!

I invite all of you posting here to visit and sit during school classes to kids, on the history of Haiti by the teachers there. It will open your eyes a lot!


After doing that, visit a school in the DR and sit during a class of history of the DR imparted by teachers here. It will contrast a whole lot to that you heard and saw in Haiti...

Just like the so-called "letters" of "Invitation" to invade the DR, there too you'll hear all the wonders that the Haitian administrators carried out in the eastern side of their now split nation (as they see the post condition of the DR declaring our side independent of Haiti's control).

Every invasion after that is painted and decorated as heroic crusades to stop the old masters from taking back their freedom... Never mind that the DR had already declared independence from their old master as well, prior to sending the "invitation" to invade to the Haitian leaders.

Please do not listen to me, but go and sit in those classrooms then come back here to talk...

If I was a Haitian by birth, I would had never spoken a word of French or allowed my kids to do it as well. Maybe English or Spanish as an extra language. But French? Hell no!

 

[PICHARDO]

As I have said DR is an afterthought in the Haitian mind. And the Haitians in DR are rarely acknowleged as part of our diaspora. Visit any diaspora Haitian websites and you will see English..French and Kreyol language discussions...never ..never Spanish.

LOL!!! As if!

The DR is a shame for the Haitian mind. Their former minions are now the Master of sorts!

What was once the mighty Republic of Haiti, is for ages the failed state that can't get it right once again.

When Haitians meet Dominicans outside of Haiti, they'll never, ever engage them in any meaningful debate. They avoid addressing the largest Haitian Diaspora in the world, which sits daily in the DR. Not because it's unimportant to them, but because it represents shame, low down and to the dirt shame.

They have shame of the kids begging in the DR streets, with rags falling off their bodies for clothes. They are shamed by the never ending pictures of Haitian women, crowded in DR hospitals to give birth. They are shamed by the constant and never ending pictures of the conditions Haitians opt to live under in the DR, not like is any worst than back home in Haiti, but because they are going and doing this outside and in the view of outsiders as well. They are shamed because these Dominicans they once ruled over, now sit in their chairs as their quasi-slave Haitian workers toil around willingly.

It's shame! Shame! Shame! And these words come not from me, but a Haitian friend with whom I had the pleasure of debating anything Haitian without any hold downs or hiding the dirty clothes of the country and people.

He asked me: How would you feel if you had the reverse situation with another country and you were in my shoes?

I honestly answered: That's why I NEVER visit Puerto Rico!!!

 

[mofongoloco]

Wow! I got home from work awhile ago waiting to check up on this thread. Thanks to OP, moderator and all us for keeping it on topic. I am off for the next few days and will be hitting up Boston Public Library to follow up on many of these very useful links posted by you all. This thread details how history is created and revised on an ongoing basis. It also resonates with the current ongoing effect of events which occurred 500, 200, and 50 years ago. History is revised as we learn more, dig, scratch and challenge our pre-conceived notions. Recorded history is always subject to the bias of the historian holding the quill/pen/keyboard in his/her hand. Fortunately, all of us here have been granted the liberating gift of literacy. We can read those historical works, look up from our keyboards and use our own minds to think! This is done more easily with a belly full of food, electricity, and a reasonable expectation that tomorrow will bring more of the same.

 

[mountainannie]

good link, Bob.. thanks

I am taking it bit by bit

here is one bit I did not know

It is almost never mentioned that, for nearly 20 years of their 22-year
reign, the Haitian "occupiers" held power not with their own troops but solely
with regiments recruited among the Spanish-speaking black, mulatto, and
white men of the eastern part of the island (Franco, 1993: 181). On the cul-
tural front, attempts to impose use of the French language in primary schools
and official documents inspired resentment in the East (Moya Pons, 1972:
86). Yet widespread discontent with Haitian rule was not immediate but arose
primarily after 1836, when a major global economic downturn made the
weight of taxes imposed by the Haitian government seem less bearable to the
residents of the East (Franco, 1993: 189-191). Up until that point, blacks and
mulattos in the East regarded Haitian rule as an improvement upon the Span-
ish colonial government that had preceded it and considered it preferable to
living under an independent but white-dominated state. The Haitians not only
abolished the loathsome institution of slavery but brought about greater pros-
perity through land reform and the opening of ports in the East to legal com-
merce with other nations (Franco, 1993: 186-188). It is significant that even
after Dominican independence, in 1844, certain Afro-Dominicans took up
arms out of fear that slavery would be reimposed after the Haitians gave up
power (Franco, 1977: 161; Moya Pons, 1974: 21).


I did know that it was the threat of re enslavment by France that is cited in books on Haiti as the reason for the take over of the eastern region.

But I did not know that the peace was kept by local forces.

 

[Quisqueya]

Black American feel comfortable in the DR because they are in a place where the MAJORITY of the people look like them but soon realize these same people that look like them have a different mentality to who they are.

Question, why less emphasis on when Haiti collaborated with the Dominicans to eradicate the Spaniards off the island for good "La Guerra de Restauracion". Why Dominicanise Haitians and their descendants who also were key players in Dominican History. Why don't the Dominicans hate the French, Spaniards, and Americans who occupied them? Why Trujillo with Haitian blood running through his veins despised his own skin color who would use products to appear lighter?

 

[Naked_Snake]

Question, why less emphasis on when Haiti collaborated with the Dominicans to eradicate the Spaniards off the island for good "La Guerra de Restauracion".

They didn't collaborate out of the goodness of their hearts. They knew damn well that if Spaniards had the chance to consolidate their hold here, they (Haitians) stood a good chance of losing their positions in the Central Plateau of the island, the majority of which was occupied de facto by their troops under the truce of 1856, a truce that Spaniards had all the intention of nullifying, as the diplomatic correspondence of the era showed. See the works of Emiliano Tejera (one of the negotiators in the initial talks that the two countries had about a border settlement in the 1890's and initial 1900's).

Why Dominicanise Haitians and their descendants who also were key players in Dominican History.

If you're talking about Ulises Heureaux, I'd recommend for you people not to claim him, since his heroic deeds in the war of Restoration would be later nullified by his stupid governmental decisions when he was in power, decisions that would lead to American intervention a couple of decades later.

Why don't the Dominicans hate the French, Spaniards, and Americans who occupied them? Why Trujillo with Haitian blood running through his veins despised his own skin color who would use products to appear lighter?

Because they don't have a massive presence here, nor pose a threat to the future territorial integrity of the reoublic. Heck, Americans are looking for a way of getting rid of their Puerto Rican commitments as it is, so I pretty much doubt that they are looking for more lands, XIXth century style. Haiti, on the other hand, would stand a lot to gain if it were to push its border eastward by using their citizens on our borderlands as a pretext, just like it did in the past century.

 

[Wishing you well]

Black American feel comfortable in the DR because they are in a place where the MAJORITY of the people look like them but soon realize these same people that look like them have a different mentality to who they are.

Question, why less emphasis on when Haiti collaborated with the Dominicans to eradicate the Spaniards off the island for good "La Guerra de Restauracion". Why Dominicanise Haitians and their descendants who also were key players in Dominican History. Why don't the Dominicans hate the French, Spaniards, and Americans who occupied them? Why Trujillo with Haitian blood running through his veins despised his own skin color who would use products to appear lighter?

Please allow me to sum this for you in a very simple way --- Dominicans, regardless of skin color and as opposed to any nationality, careless about races (with the exemption of Haiti )which we're now discussing and finding out why) they know they are mixed and embraced that.

 

[Naked_Snake]

I did know that it was the threat of re enslavment by France that is cited in books on Haiti as the reason for the take over of the eastern region.

There's also one that few will ever tell you, namely, that the Haitian country simply ran out of lands with which to pay the soldiers of their enormous military for their services. It's not a secret that, as the country simply came out without a penny from their war of independence against the French, Petion and the other chiefs of the southern republic (things were different in Christophe's kingdom in the north) had no other resource than to divide the large plantations into little plots in order to pay their soldiers. The end result of this, of course, was that the exports of that republic would diminish year after year, except for the coffee that could be collected without too much effort. As far as sugar, indigo and cotton was concerned, though, they would disappear as significant staples for exportation, never to return.