Jovenel Moïse is a dictator at this point...

[Naked_Snake]

I will leave it to you to proffer HIStory my man.
Continue to educate from your country of origin.
Continue to drag your issues that you have not been able to resolve in your own country of origin and post about them here.
I don't worry about those who still want to wear white hoodies in the 🇩🇴 (that is if you even live here).
Did you learn about who was behind the success of Jack Daniels (a former slave) from me❓
After all, education is education.
Happy February to you also‼️

Too busy enjoying myself here in 🇩🇴 .
I will now return to my regular enjoyment of life.
Haiti is the next to the country where I live.
I have an interest in it.
I believe the people who live there will resolve their issues.
I do not believe dictatorship is the answer.

a. I live here in the DR, in the capital of all places.

b. As the subforum name says it, this is the place to speak about Haitian issues. If I end up speaking tangentially about DR is because you are dragging it into this space, not because I am personally inclined to drag DR issues to this space.

c. You care about appearances and impressions, I care more about results, and Haiti's track record, both as a colony and as an independent country show that it can only function when it has a governor/emperor/king/president for life calling the shots, without parliamentary gridlocks and other white man's dragging feet idiocies in the way of what needs to be done.

 

[Tom F.]

Yourmaninvegas,

Seems to me that none of their subsequent rulers have been able to measure up with Toussaint, Dessalines, Christophe, Petion or even Boyer. As for the DR, I would take Balaguer over any of the current crop of clowns, yes. So that should answer your question.

If Pena Gomez had ever been President, the DR would be in a better place today.

 

[Naked_Snake]

If Pena Gomez had ever been President, the DR would be in a better place today.

I agree. He was the only one with the guts and sheer commanding presence to keep the perredeista rabble in line. Neither Hipo nor Abinader have a quarter of his political genius or even charisma.

 

[Yourmaninvegas]

a. I live here in the DR, in the capital of all places.

EAST SIDE‼️
I know the capital.
I am up in the place all the time.
So stop letting my user name confuse you on my location.

b. As the subforum name says it, this is the place to speak about Haitian issues. If I end up speaking tangentially about DR is because you are dragging it into this space, not because I am personally inclined to drag DR issues to this space.

No one needs to remind me of the the name of the subform.
You only would need to scan the number of threads where I am the OP to learn that I am very aware of where I am posting.
But you have zero problems dragging the 🇺🇲 into the discussion or blowing your "dog whistles".
Go home if you want to teach brother.
Post up if you want to discuss.

c. You care about appearances and impressions, I care more about results, and Haiti's track record, both as a colony and as an independent country show that it can only function when it has a governor/emperor/king/president for life calling the shots, without parliamentary gridlocks and other white man's dragging feet idiocies in the way of what needs to be done.

We can agree to disagree.
But I'm not interested in your personal impressions of me.
Your statement in c ignores that the country of Haiti needs to operate in the world in order to function well also.
When the country was first founded the world was afraid of what they represented and did not welcome them into the global community.
I believe in actions also.
The people of Haiti need to solve their own problems.
Others need to take their hand out of the pot.
And their boots off the ground.
I believe the world community still does not want them to do that because a functioning Haiti is not in their interests.

Are not all Snakes_Naked in nature❓

 

[Yourmaninvegas]

Does dictatorship or democracy work better ❓
This is a exercise left to the reader...

Democracy or Dictatorship: Which Works Better?

Branko Milanovic on why the Chinese or Singaporean models of political organisation may prove to appealing to others.

www.globalpolicyjournal.com

Democracy or Dictatorship? Which is Better for Economic Growth of Nations

Economic Theory often debates the type of system that is conducive for economic growth. While some experts believe that democracy is better for economic development, others point to dictatorships as being good for prosperity. Using theories and examples from the real world, this article examines...

www.managementstudyguide.com

Are Dictatorships More Successful Than Democracies? | Alvaro Vargas Llosa

WASHINGTON--A group of European readers of this column recently wrote to me, arguing that from an economic point of view, dictatorships have been outperforming democracies for many years and that if the trend continues, there will be very little incentive to replace autocrats with the rule of...

www.independent.org

 

[mountainannie]

Same thing happens across the world every single time one of these nations ruled by a dictator is "liberated"
They can kiss peace and stability good bye.

It's true. I was taught - in what I came to know as my rather bizarre Quaker school - that the very first prerequisite for a democracy was an educated electorate. Haiti most certainly falls Very Far short of that. The United States has been in a sorta "damned if we do- damned if we don't' situation - trying to export/impose democracy on nations that are neither equipped nor inclined for it and pressured from within to withdraw support from dictators. Meanwhile we slipping from the view of the world stage as being judged as a democracy ourselves and thus in less and less of a position to influence or preach from any sort of moral high ground.
Yet once the genie of the vote has been released from the bottle, it is difficult to put the cap back on.
Certainly Moise is attempting to re-establish a dictatorship but I have no clue as to the forces that are backing him - certainly SOMEONE is. I have not been really following the story in French/Kreyole - or Spanish - nor from the usually reliable leftist sources in the US. On the surface it appears that he is unpopular with EVERYONE - but I somehow doubt that is the case? Who is behind him? Anyone? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...fb4b06-6a53-11eb-9ead-673168d5b874_story.html

 

[mountainannie]

Silly me. Only took a couple of seconds. Of course it is what used to be called the Group of 184? or something like that? The Business Guys - the few left in Haiti who have not run off to Miami, the Bahamas, the DR, France -- who own the importing businesses... or - at least -- "so people are saying '' - https://haitiliberte.com/haitis-de-facto-president-gives-haiti-to-coca-cola/
Here in SoFl - We Are Full UP with Elite Haitis - of the 15% who speak French, still own property - probably also collecting RENTS and living off the poverty of their distant cousins back on the Island while many of them are still benefitting from their Temporary Status they got after the earthquake in 2010. The SHOCK on one person's face when I said "They Should Be Sent Back!" -- Because, of course, These educated Haitians - the ones smart enough to figure out HOW to get TPS, the ones who are sitting pretty here in exile, having US anchor babies, getting DACA status, returning on vacation -- well - they are the primary reason that their country is so very very very poor. That - and - of course - the fact that SOMEHOW - the folks that STAY in Haiti - NEVER seem to allow anyone in the diaspora to VOTE.. they hold it all to themselves - the wretched poverty, the abysmal poverty. There are some who say that Haiti had the first slave rebellion - and I would posit - that they actually Never Got Out of the Plantation system..
(not as far as I can see - but - well I am a blue eyed gringa - and have only been looking in from the outside for 40 years - only lived there for a year way back under Baby Doc - only covered the news on the Border for 15 years -- maybe not the Best informed but A Pretty Damned Well Informed Opinion.)

 

[mountainannie]

Here is more on the Coca-Cola Stevia deal - in Spanish - and How Very Interesting it is that this snippet of news Never Seems to make it into the NYT or the WaPo or the Miami Herald? Perhaps Al Jazeera has it? Well, they probably have it - but doubt they will run it. https://haitinominustah.info/2021/0...ia-nueva-entrega-al-servicio-de-la-coca-cola/
Note that this source is the Very Left -- Probably aligned closer to Raul than anyone else

 

[CristoRey]

It's true. I was taught - in what I came to know as my rather bizarre Quaker school - that the very first prerequisite for a democracy was an educated electorate. Haiti most certainly falls Very Far short of that. The United States has been in a sorta "damned if we do- damned if we don't' situation - trying to export/impose democracy on nations that are neither equipped nor inclined for it and pressured from within to withdraw support from dictators. Meanwhile we slipping from the view of the world stage as being judged as a democracy ourselves and thus in less and less of a position to influence or preach from any sort of moral high ground.
Yet once the genie of the vote has been released from the bottle, it is difficult to put the cap back on.
Certainly Moise is attempting to re-establish a dictatorship but I have no clue as to the forces that are backing him - certainly SOMEONE is. I have not been really following the story in French/Kreyole - or Spanish - nor from the usually reliable leftist sources in the US. On the surface it appears that he is unpopular with EVERYONE - but I somehow doubt that is the case? Who is behind him? Anyone? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...fb4b06-6a53-11eb-9ead-673168d5b874_story.html

So long as America's problems don't become my problems, I'm cool.
So long as Haiti's problems don't become my problems, I'm cool.
I could care less about what happens in either one of those countries.

 

[NALs]

I don't remember who but some of those guys enslaved other Haitians after they booted out the French.

The biggest issue from a historical point of view is how important Dessalines image became during Duvalier's dictatorship and continues to be reveered today. That is something they have to change. Even the national anthem of Haiti is named after him. Regardless of the country, no place should rise someone to the level of a god that, despite his merits, was a rapist and an assassin. There is a legitimate reason why Dessalines was ambushed and killed outside Port-au-Prince in 1806 by his close friends, less than two years after declaring himself "emperor for life."

Since that time all the way to Duvalier, Dessalines was seen as a marginal character. They recognized that he was brave in leading the revolution, but stop short due to his excesses. The focus was on Toussaint who is the true creator of Haiti, not Dessalines who became the leader of the revolution when Toussaint was out of the picture once the French took him away in chains. He would had never risen above Toussaint precisely because Toussaint was his leader too. Toussaint is the true leader of the Haitians. A man that was also intelligent, educated, had a greater sense of humanity and never stoop as low as Dessalines when it came to doing excesses. He was basically the opposite of Dessalines.

Even the face of Dessalines was changed during Duvalier. All descriptions by close friends to enemies that met him in person say he had a very ugly face. Under Duvalier official references to his ugliness stop and many statues and busts of him present a man with a more handsome face.

Many Haitian historians to this day say that many things done by Dessalines should had never been done and they are right. An assassin, a rapist, and a corrupt man like he was should never be held in high regard. The fact that he was also illiterate with hardly any formal education is also true, but that is irrelevant.

I don't think no other country in the Caribbean and possibly in the Western Hemisphere have an assassin (not so much killing other people in battle, because that's what's done in battles; but, killing civilians while tying their hands on their back, striping them of their clothes, and subjecting them to all sorts of abuses that would result in death is murder) and a rapist, and yet held as the creator of a nation. To boot he wasn't the one who put in action what would become Haiti.

There shouldn't be so many streets, parks, busts, even the national anthem named after him. One statue in Port-au-Prince to commemorate his bravery and that's it. Toussaint should be the quasi-god of Haiti. Aside from Dessalines bravery, overall he was an evil man with an explosive personality, on one hand a womanizer with women he slept with in every town. On the other hand, a rapist of the women and teenage girls that rejected his advances, plus there are accounts that he beat many of them too. He even killed people that were close to him for ridiculous things such as perceiving that so-and-so looked at him the wrong way. Despicable in every sense of the word. Even Christophe, who also had his issues, wasn't as cruel and evil as Dessalines.

 

[NALs]

If Pena Gomez had ever been President, the DR would be in a better place today.

I doubt it for two reasons.

One, when he was mayor of Santo Domingo not much was done by the city government. He was no Abel Martínez.

Second, had he become president in the elections of 1994, the following is no issue, but if he would had won in 1996 he would had died in office within two years of taking power. His death in 1998 was due to a pancreatic cancer. That was going to happen at that time regardless. One could argue that due to the added stress that accompany a position as the presidency, the death could had been earlier as it would had affected the cancer.

Of course, the achilles heel in all of this is that a person must be a Dominican citizen (not naturalized) to be president and that was the real issue. He was born in 1937 to Haitian parents who worked in a banana plantation outside of Mao. His actual name was Oggi Pie. Since 1929 anyone that was categorized "in transit," which included illegal immigrants and temporary workers as his parents, could not give birth to a Dominican citizen. He was later adopted by a Dominican family and obviously became a symbol in the PRD. The Dominican authorities during the regularization plan tread carefully with his image because of that legacy. The entire purpose of that regularization plan was to fix a decades old problem of giving Dominican papers to people that according to the constitution didn't qualify for it, but the media fiasco had its impact that went beyond the borders of the DR. The widow of Peña, Peggy Cabral, made public that she once went to Haiti get documents about his birth, but also to meet up with his mother who was still alive.

The million dollar question is the following. Its widely known that Juan Bosch was another rival of Joaquín Balaguer. In fact, Bosch founded the PRD in Havana, Cuba and before he left to establish the PLD because the party had drifted beyond what he intended, he met Peña Gómez as a member of the PRD. While Peña and Bosch were once members of the same party and Bosch was among the most important figures, why does Bosch makes an agreement with Balaguer in 1996? This is a man who didn't have an ounce of prejudice and no one ever has presented him as such. Did Bosch know something about Peña? That alliance was in favor of Leonel Fernández and the PLD, which he won becoming for the first time the president of the DR.

BTW, the official biography of Peña at the PUCMM website mentions that he came in third place in the 1990's election because he was black and of Haitian descent, and to justify this it even mentions that Haiti invaded the DR in the XIX century. While true that Haiti invaded multiple times in that century, it isn't true that that was the issue. Ulises Hereaux was black (its impossible to be blacker than him) and had a Haitian father, yet became president of the DR by vote on two ocassions during the last decades of the 1800's. He is only one example of several. How come Peña's loss in 1990 was due to being black and of Haitian descent but, apparently that wasn't an issue on two ocassions regarding Hereaux? To make matters even more interesting, at the time of Hereaux the DR was whiter, lighter, and less Haitian than it is now or in 1990. I say that's baloney, to say the least.

 

[mountainannie]

The biggest issue from a historical point of view is how important Dessalines image became during Duvalier's dictatorship and continues to be reveered today. That is something they have to change. Even the national anthem of Haiti is named after him. Regardless of the country, no place should rise someone to the level of a god that, despite his merits, was a rapist and an assassin. There is a legitimate reason why Dessalines was ambushed and killed outside Port-au-Prince in 1806 by his close friends, less than two years after declaring himself "emperor for life."

Since that time all the way to Duvalier, Dessalines was seen as a marginal character. They recognized that he was brave in leading the revolution, but stop short due to his excesses. The focus was on Toussaint who is the true creator of Haiti, not Dessalines who became the leader of the revolution when Toussaint was out of the picture once the French took him away in chains. He would had never risen above Toussaint precisely because Toussaint was his leader too. Toussaint is the true leader of the Haitians. A man that was also intelligent, educated, had a greater sense of humanity and never stoop as low as Dessalines when it came to doing excesses. He was basically the opposite of Dessalines.

Even the face of Dessalines was changed during Duvalier. All descriptions by close friends to enemies that met him in person say he had a very ugly face. Under Duvalier official references to his ugliness stop and many statues and busts of him present a man with a more handsome face.

Many Haitian historians to this day say that many things done by Dessalines should had never been done and they are right. An assassin, a rapist, and a corrupt man like he was should never be held in high regard. The fact that he was also illiterate with hardly any formal education is also true, but that is irrelevant.

I don't think no other country in the Caribbean and possibly in the Western Hemisphere have an assassin (not so much killing other people in battle, because that's what's done in battles; but, killing civilians while tying their hands on their back, striping them of their clothes, and subjecting them to all sorts of abuses that would result in death is murder) and a rapist, and yet held as the creator of a nation. To boot he wasn't the one who put in action what would become Haiti.

There shouldn't be so many streets, parks, busts, even the national anthem named after him. One statue in Port-au-Prince to commemorate his bravery and that's it. Toussaint should be the quasi-god of Haiti. Aside from Dessalines bravery, overall he was an evil man with an explosive personality, on one hand a womanizer with women he slept with in every town. On the other hand, a rapist of the women and teenage girls that rejected his advances, plus there are accounts that he beat many of them too. He even killed people that were close to him for ridiculous things such as perceiving that so-and-so looked at him the wrong way. Despicable in every sense of the word. Even Christophe, who also had his issues, wasn't as cruel and evil as Dessalines.

Nals - I'm not so sure WHAT is taught to educated Haitians now. The few that I encountered in my travels to and work w/ Haiti still revered Toussaint but focused on The Defeat of Napoleon's Army - which is certainly a distortion of the reality of the forces.

I joked with one young journalist there that the difference between Haitians and Dominicans is the difference of the WEIGHT of their past. Talking to Haitians, they immediately start going back to their "glorious history" and victory over Napoleon so it is impossible to get them into the present moment - whereas Dominicans adapt immediately - "Baseball? Money? TEACH me the GAME!!"

The worst legacy from their entire colonial time is their land division system - it is so mired in old divisions - (I think it was under Petion/Dessalines? who divided it all up into small plots to pay for the army?) that it is almost impossible to discover and transfer titles. I have one friend in LT whose father owned - and now HE owns - a reasonably large plot of land outside PauP that someone has been "keeping" for them for 40 years! He would sell it - or even give it away - but would have to return to and find the papers etc - which he cannot afford to do.

The deal made with Andy Apaid & Coca Cola took away land that was farmed by peasants and put another nail in the coffin of Haiti's dream of being self-sufficient in food again - which dream was lost when Clinton forced them to lower their tariffs and accept subsidized US rice in exchange for the return for US rice. Even the DR rice market was/is threatened by the US rice which was the biggest product traded across the border when I was there - (2002-2016) - along with the used clothing that was repackaged and resold from Goodwill etc...Clinton has said that it was the biggest regret of his life. That he had thought that Haiti could just leap over into the "Industrial Age" - by doing the assembly work (which was reasonably vibrant one under Duvalier ( pere et fils). Preval, himself a farmer and the only President who had lived to retire in his own country - much beloved - rose on the platform of having Haiti once again food sufficient. Back in the late 60"s they were net food exporters - as the DR is now.

Then, of course, was the US mandated slaughter of the small indigenous Kreyole pig, also ordered by the US back in '78. The US pigs imported from IOWA ate twice as much as an entire Haitian family. Now they serve as part of the PauP garbage collectors union.

When I attended a conference down in Pedernales with Haitian and Dominican journalists, I asked the DR Ambassador - Seurrelle(?) at the time - why it was that Dominicans were so reluctant to identify themselves as "Negro"? Not acknowledge any Aftican roots? (I had a Haitian friend in the DR getting her cedula that had to FIGHT to get "negro" put on her cedilla - and a mahogany skinned maid who SWORE she was "Indian and European" - and NOT "Negro)... His answer -"When Trujillo was president, he had the history books revised to remove any mention of any African heritage. Dominicans were taught that they descended from Tainos and Europeans". The Haitian journalists all expressed an "AHA" moment - saying things like "OH, so THAT is why there is such animosity - they do not believe that they are Like Us." -- Plus, of course, that the DR celebrates its independence from Haiti, etc etc.

I am certain that both you and I know more about Haitian history than many Haitians. Certainly more than most Haitians living here in the US. But I don't think that the removal of statues is going to help them get out of where they are no. Nor does there seem to be ANYONE (a la Aristide) in the "Opposition" who is rising to take over the country. But I will start keeping a better eye out.

 

[NanSanPedro]

NALS and Annie: Please keep these history lesson coming. Incredibly informative!!!

 

[mountainannie]

Oh- Cholera- I forgot Cholera - brought to Haiti courtesy of the UN troops in 2010. So - well - much as I may blame the Haitians for the current state of affairs - they certainly didn't have a whole helluva lot of help from the outside world. It does seem that any sort of intervention only makes things worse. They refer to themselves as the "country of NGOs" since still the best paying jobs are with the NGOs. And the Christian missionaries keep making them thank Jesus for the medical treatment & food that are given out while the Christian networks here in the USA preach that "Haiti was given to Haiti" so - really - Not Much Help at ALL.

 

[NanSanPedro]

Oh- Cholera- I forgot Cholera - brought to Haiti courtesy of the UN troops in 2010. So - well - much as I may blame the Haitians for the current state of affairs - they certainly didn't have a whole helluva lot of help from the outside world. It does seem that any sort of intervention only makes things worse. They refer to themselves as the "country of NGOs" since still the best paying jobs are with the NGOs. And the Christian missionaries keep making them thank Jesus for the medical treatment & food that are given out while the Christian networks here in the USA preach that "Haiti was given to Haiti" so - really - Not Much Help at ALL.

I was there for cholera. Horrible, but they did have a lot of mobile hospitals where lots of people got helped. No one I knew died.

Regarding missionaries, I was one. Would do it again if I was younger and more mobile. The answer is in teaching them to sustain themselves and not viewing the blans as walking ATMs. Not an easy task but quite doable.

 

[mountainannie]

Not to mention that Haiti had to pay France for its freedom - the payments were enforced by the US and went on from 1821 to 1947 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haiti_indemnity_controversy.

It was explained to me once that in order to pay, they cut the mahogany trees first - that being the most valuable wood.. and thus began the deforestation.

Not much help from the outside world....

 

[mountainannie]

I was there for cholera. Horrible, but they did have a lot of mobile hospitals where lots of people got helped. No one I knew died.

Regarding missionaries, I was one. Would do it again if I was younger and more mobile. The answer is in teaching them to sustain themselves and not viewing the blans as walking ATMs. Not an easy task but quite doable.

Of all the missionaries I met in my travels, the Mormons were the most successful in "teaching a man to fish" - they really focused on teaching business. It took until Bush, jr for the US to start channelling US $$ into Christian organizations - and now - you can see in Sto Dom - that one of the Christian food organizations has a building in Gazcue about the size of that of the Papal Nuncio.

 

[mountainannie]

The Cubans sent the most help with the doctors and hospitals during cholera. But after the earthquake the various organizations that came in to help essentially collapsed what little there was of the state medical system since they simply started giving out care for free instead of first subsidizing the Haitian doctors and hospitals. It does seem that the rule in outsiders helping Haiti is that "If we can do it the wrong way, We most certainly Will."

 

[NanSanPedro]

Of all the missionaries I met in my travels, the Mormons were the most successful in "teaching a man to fish" - they really focused on teaching business. It took until Bush, jr for the US to start channelling US $$ into Christian organizations - and now - you can see in Sto Dom - that one of the Christian food organizations has a building in Gazcue about the size of that of the Papal Nuncio.

It's sad when you see money spent like that on Christian bureaucracies. That's why I never donate to them. Local churches, pastored by guys you know and trust. Ministries here like Strength for the Journey, exceptionally run by Lindsey Kaufman too. Other than that, no exceptions.

 

[mountainannie]

I was there for cholera. Horrible, but they did have a lot of mobile hospitals where lots of people got helped. No one I knew died.

Regarding missionaries, I was one. Would do it again if I was younger and more mobile. The answer is in teaching them to sustain themselves and not viewing the blans as walking ATMs. Not an easy task but quite doable.

It was a young AP reporter who tracked the cholera outbreak to the Minustah camp. He wrote a good book- https://jonathanmkatz.com/bigtruck