On January 26 they will decide whether to send Kenyan troops to Haiti

windeguy

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add it to the long list of countries that are exercises in futility.
Those other countries are unlikely to cause continued damage to where I live.
The DR needs to control the potential damage from Haiti.
 

Big

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Those other countries are unlikely to cause continued damage to where I live.
The DR needs to control the potential damage from Haiti.
The Haiti situation does not cause me damage, one single solitary bit. It does provide me with inexpensive reliable labor.
 

windeguy

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The Haiti situation does not cause me damage, one single solitary bit. It does provide me with inexpensive reliable labor.
Cheap Haitian workers are the frequent excuse given to justify those that are continually here illegally. How would things get done without them? Dominicans won't do those jobs, etc. I understand why that is attractive and of benefit to those that use them.

I have my own medical care and doctors I use. Never noticed a Haitian in one of those hospitals or clinics. I would never notice the issue that hospitals for the general public are overburdened with Haitian women giving birth if it was not posted in the news.

But such things are not my real point about the potential negatives from Haiti. The DR has dealt with them since before I arrived.

I want to make sure the DR government is able to control any violence that might try to cross the border from Haiti if and when the situation there has reached a point where the people will no longer tolerate it. It is reported that people in Haiti are at a break point. That is one of the reasons I consider the wall to be one step to help prevent those problems.
 

Big

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Cheap Haitian workers are the frequent excuse given to justify those that are continually here illegally. How would things get done without them? Dominicans won't do those jobs, etc. I understand why that is attractive and of benefit to those that use them.

I have my own medical care and doctors I use. Never noticed a Haitian in one of those hospitals or clinics. I would never notice the issue that hospitals for the general public are overburdened with Haitian women giving birth if it was not posted in the news.

But such things are not my real point about the potential negatives from Haiti. The DR has dealt with them since before I arrived.

I want to make sure the DR government is able to control any violence that might try to cross the border from Haiti if and when the situation there has reached a point where the people will no longer tolerate it. It is reported that people in Haiti are at a break point. That is one of the reasons I consider the wall to be one step to help prevent those problems.
Haiti is not the cause of crime here.
 

windeguy

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Haiti is not the cause of crime here.
And that is not my point at all. Although my wife will differ with you on that topic.

Keeping any potential situation that flares up soon in Haiti within Haiti is my point.

If the DR didn't build a wall along the Haitian border, there might have been enough money to build a Cabarete bypass. :love::D:eek:;)
 

Big

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And that is not my point at all. Although my wife will differ with you on that topic.

Keeping any potential situation that flares up soon in Haiti within Haiti is my point.

If the DR didn't build a wall along the Haitian border, there might have been enough money to build a Cabarete bypass. :love::D:eek:;)
well there is several different topics. Immigration (of course the border needs to be secure), strain on social services (more robust border security will alleviate that) and you are sprinkling in crime on the D.R side. Resolving the problems in Haiti will of course relieve the border stampede, but that is simply not going to happen.
 

bob saunders

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Cheap Haitian workers are the frequent excuse given to justify those that are continually here illegally. How would things get done without them? Dominicans won't do those jobs, etc. I understand why that is attractive and of benefit to those that use them.

I have my own medical care and doctors I use. Never noticed a Haitian in one of those hospitals or clinics. I would never notice the issue that hospitals for the general public are overburdened with Haitian women giving birth if it was not posted in the news.

But such things are not my real point about the potential negatives from Haiti. The DR has dealt with them since before I arrived.

I want to make sure the DR government is able to control any violence that might try to cross the border from Haiti if and when the situation there has reached a point where the people will no longer tolerate it. It is reported that people in Haiti are at a break point. That is one of the reasons I consider the wall to be one step to help prevent those problems.
all one has to do is drive by a public hospital and observe all the Haitians waiting to realize that they create a burden. I have observed quite a few Haitians using the services at Union Medica in Santiago. Not all Haitians living in the DR are poor. PriceSmart has a lot of Haitian customers. My countryside Neighbour is a rich Haitian. We have about 15 Haitian kids in the school. The parents are very good at paying on time. All are legally in the DR. As for crime the police have caught plenty of Haitians stealing, break and entering, and selling Drugs. Most are hardworking people, but not all.
 

windeguy

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all one has to do is drive by a public hospital and observe all the Haitians waiting to realize that they create a burden. I have observed quite a few Haitians using the services at Union Medica in Santiago. Not all Haitians living in the DR are poor. PriceSmart has a lot of Haitian customers. My countryside Neighbour is a rich Haitian. We have about 15 Haitian kids in the school. The parents are very good at paying on time. All are legally in the DR. As for crime the police have caught plenty of Haitians stealing, break and entering, and selling Drugs. Most are hardworking people, but not all.
Of course there are rich Haitians that escaped from Haiti. I have read how the guns are funded, after all, by rich Haitian businessmen.
I have also seen the news reports on how many of condos in cities are being bought buy rich Haitians in the DR.
 

USA DOC

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Yes, but I am talking about keeping major issues contained in Haiti. We all know about the deportations and returns of Haitians that I nicknamed Project Boomerang. And about the Haitian births in DR hospitals that are a tax drain...

But this is about containing the violence, shootings and kidnappings within Haiti so DR citizens don't become collateral damage to this perpetual failed state without hope of improvement in our lifetime.
As the influx of Haitians continue, in a number of years the haitians and Dominican intermarry... the population on this island will become very similair thus making this island one big country...So as some of the larger countries on the planet think that solves the problem, without any kind of intervention............
 

NALs

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Cheap Haitian workers are the frequent excuse given to justify those that are continually here illegally. How would things get done without them? Dominicans won't do those jobs, etc. I understand why that is attractive and of benefit to those that use them.
Every time I hear that all I can think is how were the Monumento in Santiago, the Duarte Bridge in SD, the Palace of Fine Arts, the National Palace, the malecón in SD from Ave Lincoln to the river, the original Hamaca Hotel (which is still there as an integral part of the expansion) in Boca Chica, the La Altagracia Basilica in Higüey, the San Felipe Church in Puerto Plata, the original malecón of Puerto Plata, the Puerto Plata International Airport, the original Puerto Plata Teleférico, the pedestrian bridge off the coast of Samaná, the Sagrado Corazón de Jesús Cathedral in Moca, the Santo Cerro church, many of the buildings in La Vega, Playa Dorada when it was first created, the original Juan Pablo Duarte Olympic Center in SD, the original Mirador del Sur Park, Plaza de la Bandera in SD/SDO, the main cathedral and much of the center in San Cristóbal, the Ntra Sra de la Regla Church in Baní, the original Parque Duarte in Barahona, the original Las Américas International Airport in SD, the original Las Américas Highway (which is actually the DR first "controlled access" highway in the DR), the National Theater in SD, the La Altagracia Maternity Hospital in SD, the old center of San Pedro de Macorís, the entry/exit gate at the border in Dajabón, the rescue of the Alcázar de Colón in SD, the creation of the Casa Reales Museum in SD, etc?

Haitians or any other foreigners weren't most of the laborers and yet they got done. How? Simply saying "abra cadabra" and things miraculously just appeared?
 
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NALs

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all one has to do is drive by a public hospital and observe all the Haitians waiting to realize that they create a burden. I have observed quite a few Haitians using the services at Union Medica in Santiago. Not all Haitians living in the DR are poor. PriceSmart has a lot of Haitian customers. My countryside Neighbour is a rich Haitian. We have about 15 Haitian kids in the school. The parents are very good at paying on time. All are legally in the DR. As for crime the police have caught plenty of Haitians stealing, break and entering, and selling Drugs. Most are hardworking people, but not all.
The DR never had issues with Haitians with means.
 

Ecoman1949

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The Kenyan Court left two doors open for possible intervention. Send in their military instead of their police or formalize a legal agreement between the two countries to allow Kenyan military intervention. Politics isn’t the issue stopping the intervention, money is at the core of the problem. Underfunding for the intervention is the reason the Kenyan government is hesitating. I expect some form of 11th hour compromise between the UN, Haiti, and Kenya. I’m guessing the US will throw more money at the Kenyans to motivate them to put their military boots on Haitian ground. Better than sending in US forces and more politically palatable with the US voting public with a fall election pending.


The wall is a joke. At any given time there are boatloads of drugs transiting the DR coastline and landing on DR shores. Only a small percentage is caught. If a mass exodus of Haitians occurs, it won’t be along a border wall. They will arrive by boats along various parts of the DR coastline. The majority will fade into the woodwork and increase the illegal immigrant problem by orders of magnitude.

Does anyone in this forum actually believe the DR military can prevent organized gangs from fleeing and escaping to the DR? The DR borders have always been porous. Incompetent and corrupt police and military personnel are just some of the reasons.

If no one intervenes, the Haitian violence problem will fester and grow. That’s a given. Spillover of some of this violence into the DR is inevitable. I don’t envy President Abinader who has to sort through another four years of Haitian turmoil along the DR border due to UN inaction if there is no intervention.

It ain’t over till the fat lady sings and she hasn’t sung yet!
 

windeguy

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Every time I hear that all I can think is how were the Monumento in Santiago, the Duarte Bridge in SD, the Palace of Fine Arts, the National Palace, the malecón in SD from Ave Lincoln to the river, the original Hamaca Hotel (which is still there as an integral part of the expansion) in Boca Chica, the La Altagracia Basilica in Higüey, the San Felipe Church in Puerto Plata, the original malecón of Puerto Plata, the Puerto Plata International Airport, the original Puerto Plata Teleférico, the pedestrian bridge off the coast of Samaná, the Sagrado Corazón de Jesús Cathedral in Moca, the Santo Cerro church, many of the buildings in La Vega, Playa Dorada when it was first created, the original Juan Pablo Duarte Olympic Center in SD, the original Mirador del Sur Park, Plaza de la Bandera in SD/SDO, the main cathedral and much of the center in San Cristóbal, the Ntra Sra de la Regla Church in Baní, the original Parque Duarte in Barahona, the original Las Américas International Airport in SD, the original Las Américas Highway (which is actually the DR first "controlled access" highway in the DR), the National Theater in SD, the La Altagracia Maternity Hospital in SD, the old center of San Pedro de Macorís, the entry/exit gate at the border in Dajabón, the rescue of the Alcázar de Colón in SD, the creation of the Casa Reales Museum in SD, etc?

Haitians or any other foreigners weren't most of the laborers and yet they got done. How? Simply saying "abra cadabra" and things miraculously just appeared?
Ah, but that is ancient history. That was then and this is now... So would Dominicans build all of those things today?
 
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windeguy

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The Kenyan Court left two doors open for possible intervention. Send in their military instead of their police or formalize a legal agreement between the two countries to allow Kenyan military intervention. Politics isn’t the issue stopping the intervention, money is at the core of the problem. Underfunding for the intervention is the reason the Kenyan government is hesitating. I expect some form of 11th hour compromise between the UN, Haiti, and Kenya. I’m guessing the US will throw more money at the Kenyans to motivate them to put their military boots on Haitian ground. Better than sending in US forces and more politically palatable with the US voting public with a fall election pending.
I hope the USA doesn't waste the money on such a futile effort. I don't care if other countries want to throw away their money.
The wall is a joke. At any given time there are boatloads of drugs transiting the DR coastline and landing on DR shores. Only a small percentage is caught. If a mass exodus of Haitians occurs, it won’t be along a border wall. They will arrive by boats along various parts of the DR coastline. The majority will fade into the woodwork and increase the illegal immigrant problem by orders of magnitude.
True that drugs cannot be stopped. Period. Not Ever. There is just too much money to be made. But the wall is not about drugs.
As for the illegals and increasing numbers, that remains to be seen.

The only way to ultimately control illegals is not to hire them.
Does anyone in this forum actually believe the DR military can prevent organized gangs from fleeing and escaping to the DR? The DR borders have always been porous. Incompetent and corrupt police and military personnel are just some of the reasons.
Nope. But are the gangs that "organized"? Truly, I have no idea how well organized they are and how well they would stand up to any resistance the DR would present. Since the gangs control what is going on in Haiti, why would they risk taking fire by coming into the DR? I am far more concerned about large numbers of Haitians fleeing from the gangs. Seems the gangs have a good thing going amongst themselves right where they are.
If no one intervenes, the Haitian violence problem will fester and grow. That’s a given. Spillover of some of this violence into the DR is inevitable. I don’t envy President Abinader who has to sort through another four years of Haitian turmoil along the DR border due to UN inaction if there is no intervention.

It ain’t over till the fat lady sings and she hasn’t sung yet!
For Haiti, I don't think there is a fat lady to sing. The UN? A totally useless organization. Is there anyone that does not realize that? It should be disbanded.
I am not expecting anyone to be dumb enough to intervene in Haiti. Kenyans or otherwise.
 

Ecoman1949

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I hope the USA doesn't waste the money on such a futile effort. I don't care if other countries want to throw away their money.

True that drugs cannot be stopped. Period. Not Ever. There is just too much money to be made. But the wall is not about drugs.
As for the illegals and increasing numbers, that remains to be seen.

The only way to ultimately control illegals is not to hire them.

Nope. But are the gangs that "organized"? Truly, I have no idea how well organized they are and how well they would stand up to any resistance the DR would present. Since the gangs control what is going on in Haiti, why would they risk taking fire by coming into the DR? I am far more concerned about large numbers of Haitians fleeing from the gangs. Seems the gangs have a good thing going amongst themselves right where they are.

For Haiti, I don't think there is a fat lady to sing. The UN? A totally useless organization. Is there anyone that does not realize that? It should be disbanded.
I am not expecting anyone to be dumb enough to intervene in Haiti. Kenyans or otherwise.
Windy. It doesn’t matter if the intervention is successful. A lasting peace in Haiti probably has the same chance as a snowball in hell. It doesn’t matter. It has to be seen to be done because politics requires something to be done in Haiti. The UN has failed miserably in the Ukraine-Russian war and the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. It may be able to save some of its credibility if it can enable some form of intervention in Haiti. Never underestimate the stupidity of politics and politicians.
 
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NALs

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Ah, but that is ancient history. That was then and this is now... So would Dominicans build all of those things today?
One of the things most notable of Odebrecht when they were around is that they used mostly Dominican workers. It would be a mistery where they found the Dominicans to do that work since according to many Dominican builders it's hard to find Dominican workers for construction jobs. The Dominicans claim it's impossible, but the Brazilians arrived and show it isn't. I don't know if Estrella, which was partnered with Odebrecht before their demise, continues with that. However, another thing that often stand out when Odebrecht was around is that in all their construction sites, all the workers had hard hats and proper construction attire as seen in construction sites in many other countries, unlike most other Dominican builders who anyone can see most of their workers at wny construction site have none of that.

There was once a representative of some union of Dominican construction workers and one of his complaints was that one, the Dominicsn construction workers members of the union find it hard to find work in construction.

The 80/20 law is not being respected in the Dominican construction industry (and you can add agriculture to that too.) That states that no company in the DR, whether it's a Dominican company or a foreign company with a branch in the DR, can have less than 80% Dominicans and more than 20% foreigners in their workforce. That law is meant to prevent exactly what is seen in construction, Dominicans replaced by foreigners. The real culprit is the government for not enforcing that law where it's being broken.
 
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windeguy

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NALs, I have seen the law's requirements of 80/20 workers and suspect nobody ever pays attention to it. Why would they when there is cheap illegal labor available?

There are some DR1 posters that were checking on Estrellas work on the Congrejo bridge that only took 2 years to fix on the main highway north coast highway between Cabarete and Puerto Plata. They could better say how many Haitians were spotted doing that work. My guess would be well more than half were Haitians.

Of course the main issue with illegal immigration is allowing illegals to work in the DR. Preventing them from working is better than any wall alone. And yes the government and project boomerang is at fault.

Ecoman it matters to me if an intervention is successful, I would very much like a successful solution in Haiti, but I realize there is no chance one would be successful, so the DR has to do what it can to protect itself.

The UN saving face because of Haiti??>>>That cholera filled water is long under the bridge. The real stupidity is letting the UN continue to even exist.
 

drstock

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Ah, but that is ancient history. That was then and this is now... So would Dominicans build all of those things today?
I often travel the road from Sabaneta to Los Brazos. After the recent re-paving, they are now laying the curbs along the side. Every worker is black, so I assume Haitian, and they work really hard. Unlike Dominican workers, I don't see any of them doing anything but work. This last holiday weekend they were working until dark all the time, including Sunday and Monday.
 
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