Jovenel MoĂŻse is a dictator at this point...

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
15,086
544
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
WHAT?!?!?!?
You make this statement on the eve of 27 de Febrero? :oops: :sick:🤮
I have purposely avoided responding to your postings due to our previous documented disagreements, but this statement in itself just shows how far removed you are from REALITY within the RD, and IT'S history!
I will move on now. No further words, as I am a respectful gentleman.
What a folly. Unbelievable.
And ONCE AGAIN I got tangled up in words - not tangled up so much as "mistyped" just as Martelly misspoke - It was not that I ever heard a Dominican say that Haiti "Ought to " but OFTEN heard Dominicans say the Haitians "sought to".
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
15,086
544
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
What's happening to Jovenel-MoĂŻse is a disgrace. Anyone that has met him immediately gets the impression that he is a nice man and truly wants the best for Haiti, unlike some other people who should remain nameless.
He may be a lovely man personally. The conflict is evidently the old one between the "peasants" and "the business leaders" - Group of 184 - Andy Apaid et al. There was also an similar uproar when land on the Haitian side of the border was given to Groupo M for their factory in Ounaminthe/Dajabon - that it had taken away land from the peasants who "could have" used it for agricultural production. The majority of Haitians do not believe that the "business class" actually wants What Is Best For Haiti - but rather wishes to keep the wages low and their businesses profitable - whereas the dream of most Haitians that I have met is that one day their country could become self sufficient in food production and free of outside military occupation/interference.
Neither of those appear to be the direction that JoMo is heading.

There was a great hope at the time that the frontier could be come a point of co-operation and development between the two countries. After/during Aristide, all the industry and most foreign investment in Haiti had collapsed. Under Fernandez, the DR put in place a "most favored" investment plan in the hopes of encouraging development along the DR side to make use of Haitian labor - certainly a very good idea and one that might have/would have stemmed the illegal migration into the DR. Had Famosa, for instance, moved its canning operation over to Elias Pina? Where the bean producers had a surfeit of produce? Good plan - but I guess there was not enough interest.

I remember the conversation on one list serve - about how some branch of the UN- their "Agriculture" folks - were "completing" studies about "Which beans" would "grow successfully" in Haiti which I found ironic and gave me a real picture of the uselessness of the international community - since the news came at about the same time that the bean producers from up around San Juan de Managua held a protest, bringing their beans down in trucks and dumping them on the Capital steps in Santo Domingo. Beans were the major produce that was marketed across the border in Elias Pina so it would have only taken the UN Agricultural folks -- well -- you catch my drift.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NanSanPedro

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
15,086
544
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
It has never been the Haitians, but rather their government. They have been doing whatever they want and regardless if its backed by public opinion since 1804. Take the various military invasions of the DR by Haiti. They were very unpopular among the Haitian people, but a group of men at Port-au-Prince certainly didn't care what anyone thought of that. If the Haitian government acted the way the Haitian people wanted, there would hardly be any invasions.
The only actually "popularly" elected government was Aristide. And as soon as he was elected, the US decided that our government would "withhold aid" "for a while" since Aristide was "talking" of nationalizing the banks. (I actually HEARD that press conference from the State Department) Aristide rose to power on the bases of what was essentially class warfare. I spoke with one young woman who used to go to his church. She said that after the service, he would walk with the congregation outside and point to various middle/upper class homes and say "You want to know why you are poor? Look there, and there." (You can see the same thing now here in the US with the attacks on the "millionaires and billionaires")

Aristide had massive support from the US and International LEFT as well as the Haitian poor. Read Diebert's book for the gripping story of how the Aristide presidency descended into chaos - how the Cedras coup overtook the country - how Aristide used the $90 million of Haiti's money which had been on deposit in the US and was released to him when he was there in exile - to buy the influence with the US Congressional Black Caucus to pressure Clinton to restore him. Diebert's book is copiously footnoted.

To suggest that the state of Haiti now is CAUSED by the HAITIANS themselves? With NO influence from the outside? No involvement from the USA? - to me - simply indicates a lack of knowledge of the facts of history.
 

Big

Well-known member
Apr 24, 2019
2,171
1,078
113
The only actually "popularly" elected government was Aristide. And as soon as he was elected, the US decided that our government would "withhold aid" "for a while" since Aristide was "talking" of nationalizing the banks. (I actually HEARD that press conference from the State Department) Aristide rose to power on the bases of what was essentially class warfare. I spoke with one young woman who used to go to his church. She said that after the service, he would walk with the congregation outside and point to various middle/upper class homes and say "You want to know why you are poor? Look there, and there." (You can see the same thing now here in the US with the attacks on the "millionaires and billionaires")

Aristide had massive support from the US and International LEFT as well as the Haitian poor. Read Diebert's book for the gripping story of how the Aristide presidency descended into chaos - how the Cedras coup overtook the country - how Aristide used the $90 million of Haiti's money which had been on deposit in the US and was released to him when he was there in exile - to buy the influence with the US Congressional Black Caucus to pressure Clinton to restore him. Diebert's book is copiously footnoted.

To suggest that the state of Haiti now is CAUSED by the HAITIANS themselves? With NO influence from the outside? No involvement from the USA? - to me - simply indicates a lack of knowledge of the facts of history.
Is there another country in the Caribbean that is a complete helter skelter wreck like Haiti. Nope! It's a time honored tradition there to pilfer and raid all humanitarian aid. It's a nice jesture to comment on the nice friendly hard working people. Fact of the matter is if anyone there had the means to get out they would abandon their quaint little picturesque country never to return. Ask the countless Haitian cab drivers in S.Florida what they think about returning to their homeland. Haiti has many many problems and they are the ones that sank the ship, many times.
 

Yourmaninvegas

I am here to protect and serve
Feb 16, 2016
1,148
430
83
-
I will stipulate for those who like repeating themselves the Haiti has it's share of problems.
The question is can they fix their own problems.
Some believe yes
Others believe no
I believe that the international community in all forms do not help Haiti.
If Haiti is currently a dictatorship.
The government should be treated accordingly.
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
15,086
544
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Is there another country in the Caribbean that is a complete helter skelter wreck like Haiti. Nope! It's a time honored tradition there to pilfer and raid all humanitarian aid. It's a nice jesture to comment on the nice friendly hard working people. Fact of the matter is if anyone there had the means to get out they would abandon their quaint little picturesque country never to return. Ask the countless Haitian cab drivers in S.Florida what they think about returning to their homeland. Haiti has many many problems and they are the ones that sank the ship, many times.
I complete agree! Except that I think the "humanitarian aid" is pretty much a racket where the First Worlders get To Live Large pretending that they are Helping the Poor of the World ... (but that is an Entirely Different Discussion!!) so it's "scamming the scammers" IMHO

But - There is no other country in the Caribbean that has a history like Haiti's. No other country, only 15 years younger than the United States, where the former slaves rose up and fought for their freedom, were blockaded by both the US & France, were forced to pay their former colonial ruler for their independence..I mean - Jamaica was a British colony right up until the 1970s!!

Sure - certainly - we can have a discussion on the shape of the nation now - on how the elite steal from the poor - how aid is siphoned off - ALL that.. But to compare Haiti to ANY other nation? Haiti's history differs from that of any other nation in this hemisphere. Because it was a former slave colony, ruled by former slaves at a time when the US was still a slave holding nation, it was put under blockade by both the US and France.

One of the most famous historical quotes - William Jennings Bryan - US Secretary of State, 1915 "Imagine that, niggers speaking French" - that during the first US invasion (1915-1947)

Just pause for a moment and think how very different the history of Haiti would have been had the United States immediately recognized her independence and started aiding/trading with her - carried on the policies started under John Adams - rather than siding with France and assuming and crippling the treasury with external debt until 1947?

When Haiti was a French slave colony, under what is now seen as the most brutal system of slavery in the world, her external produce was equal to that of all 13 colonies. Of course, there are ample arguments that in independence neither such production nor exportation would be possible. Not the indigo for blue dye, nor the vetoer for the French perfume... But - well - if the Haitians had been WHITE MEN - can you imagine?

I think that the international community would be delighted if they could GET Haiti BACK to a dictatorship! But it's not likely to happen. I think that there is some sort of remnant of UN peacekeeping presence there now? That is going to have to bolstered back up if the street fighting continues, I expect.

The real fear now is that it is going to become a NarcoState (again) - which will not be good news for the DR!





from the Wiki -
..."Haiti was the richest and most productive European colony in the world going into the 1800s.[1][2] Haiti’s legacy of debt began shortly after a widespread slave revolt against the French, with Haitians gaining their independence from France in 1804. President of the United States Thomas Jefferson – fearing that slaves gaining their independence would spread to the United States – stopped sending aid that began under his predecessor John Adams and pursued international isolation of Haiti during his tenure.[3] France had also pursued a policy that prevented Haiti from participating in trade in the Atlantic.[2] This isolation on the international stage made Haiti desperate for economic relief.[4]

France, with warships at the ready, sailed to Haiti in 1825 and demanded Haiti to compensate France for its loss of slaves and its slave colony.[5][6] In exchange for French recognition of Haiti as a sovereign republic, France demanded payment of 150 million francs.[5] In addition to the payment, France required that Haiti provide a fifty percent discount on its exported goods to them, making repayment more difficult.[4] In 1838, France agreed to reduce the debt to 90 million francs to be paid over a period of 30 years to compensate former plantation owners who had lost their property; the 2004 equivalent of US$21 billion.[5][4][7] Historians have traced loan documents from the time of the 1825 Ordinance, through the various refinancing efforts, to the final remittance to National City Bank (now Citibank) in 1947.[2]..."

 

Fulano2

Bronze
Jun 5, 2011
2,672
260
83
Europe
from the Wiki -
..."Haiti was the richest and most productive European colony in the world going into the 1800s.[
You know anyone can write something on wiki, don’t you?
How can you compare Haiti with India, or Indonesia?
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,710
122
63
You know anyone can write something on wiki, don’t you?
How can you compare Haiti with India, or Indonesia?
Because it has been measured. The re-exportation of Haitian (Saint-Dominguan) agrarian products represented more than 2/3rds of France's external commerce in the XVIIIth century. They not only dominated the world's sugar market, but also the one of coffee, indigo and cotton (yes, Haitian/Dominguan cotton dominated used to dominate world markets over North American and Indian one). That's why the colony's loss was so devastating to France, cuz it derived more profits from it than the Spain did with continental gold, Britain with the 13 colonies/India, or even the Dutch with their East Indian commerce.

The more perverse side of the coin is that France derived even more profits from the slaves it sold to the colonial planters. That's why the reparations that the Haitian state did to them were calculated on the amount of money that the planters lost from the emancipation of their slaves more than from the mills, lands or irrigation lost during the revolution. For more reference see Moreau de Saint-Mery's "Description topographique, physique, civile, politique et historique de la partie française de l’isle Saint-Domingue".
 

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,710
122
63
That's why the colony's loss was so devastating to France, cuz it derived more profits from it than the Spain did with continental gold, Britain with the 13 colonies/India, or even the Dutch with their East Indian commerce.
Or Portugal with the gold and diamonds from Minas Gerais in Brazil.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mountainannie

Fulano2

Bronze
Jun 5, 2011
2,672
260
83
Europe
Because it has been measured. The re-exportation of Haitian (Saint-Dominguan) agrarian products represented more than 2/3rds of France's external commerce in the XVIIIth century. They not only dominated the world's sugar market, but also the one of coffee, indigo and cotton (yes, Haitian/Dominguan cotton dominated used to dominate world markets over North American and Indian one). That's why the colony's loss was so devastating to France, cuz it derived more profits from it than the Spain did with continental gold, Britain with the 13 colonies/India, or even the Dutch with their East Indian commerce.

The more perverse side of the coin is that France derived even more profits from the slaves it sold to the colonial planters. That's why the reparations that the Haitian state did to them were calculated on the amount of money that the planters lost from the emancipation of their slaves more than from the mills, lands or irrigation lost during the revolution. For more reference see Moreau de Saint-Mery's "Description topographique, physique, civile, politique et historique de la partie française de l’isle Saint-Domingue".
Sorry, but where are the numbers of this investigation in the 1800?
 

mountainannie

Platinum
Dec 11, 2003
15,086
544
113
elizabetheames.blogspot.com
Here is an article - with links - from one of the INTERNATIONAL Leftist organizations - on the CURRENT situation in Haiti - vis a vis The Coca Cola deal with Andy Apaid. https://canadiandimension.com/articles/view/racial-capitalism-and-the-betrayal-of-haiti.

At the end of Aristide's term pretty much the only support that he had was from the US/Canadian/UK Leftists. As the director of PADF - (PanAmericanDevelopmentFund - which is the NGP for the OAS) - which was working along the Haiti/DR border - & had spent the previous 6 years in Haiti (prior to the ouster of Aristide in 2004) said -"Finally, no one that I had any respect for in Haiti had any respect for him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: NanSanPedro

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,710
122
63
Sorry, but where are the numbers of this investigation in the 1800?
Why are you moving the goalposts? You know as well as everyone here that in the 1800's Haiti was already an independent wreck. That said, this fact doesn't erase the protagonism it had along with other Caribbean plantation colonies (most notably Jamaica and Barbados) in giving their respective metropolis the necessary colonial wealth with which to propel the industrial revolution forward during the previous century, and this is an undisputable fact. You can check additionally Robin Blackburn's "The Making of New World Slavery" and it's sequel "The Overthrow" for more about this. Now if you are feeling wounded about the Dutch being a marginal player after helping giving birth to many of these colonies, then that is another story...
 
  • Like
Reactions: mountainannie

Naked_Snake

Bronze
Sep 2, 2008
1,710
122
63
Annie,

An interesting tidbit is that Saint-Domingue began its life as a tobacco colony, but tax farming interests in the metropolis led to the abandonment of the crop, due to those interests favoring the sale of Virginia produce in France. They'd feel like fools today if they saw how highly rated Dominican tobacco is today.
 
  • Like
Reactions: mountainannie

Big

Well-known member
Apr 24, 2019
2,171
1,078
113
Yes the culture of "please save us from ourselves" ," it's the rich people's fault" has plagued the entire country. They will be waiting around for handouts from the red cross and habitat for humanity for decades. They have much company. Many countries and people blame others for their failures. Except other countries in the Caribbean.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fulano2

Fulano2

Bronze
Jun 5, 2011
2,672
260
83
Europe
Annie,
Where does this file say it was the “richest and most productive colony of the world in the 1800”? Where are the Numbers comparing with Indonesia, a country 200 times bigger, or India..